Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Sween]

cool we are bashing religion. whos more evil someone that comits evil or someone that allows evil to be commited.

In my opinion relgion should not be taught at all in schools (i know all are covred in rs) i am tallking about in assemblys where they go on about jesus and stuff poluting the minds of people.

schools should teach facts not made up rubbish.

Relgion is root of all evil and those that follow it are servely misguided and many unwittingly comit many an evil

[Lief Erikson]

One note: I made a couple writing errors in my previous post, like when I said that it is mercy to send someone to hell. That was a big goof up error, I meant isn't. But God had already offered his mercy, and it was rejected. Therefore it is justice.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I never asked a question. I was making a statement. When people turn to god or a supernatural outside entity is when they feel they can't handle a situation on their own and don't know where to turn. This was plainly displayed by the number of people going to church after 9/11. Now that things have gone back to normal - people have stopped going to church.

I agree with you there. Frequently people do turn to the supernatural when faced with things that they can't handle. People pray, and their prayers aren't answered, because they simply don't understand prayer. And I also agree that during peace time people tend to lax off. Whenever there is oppression on the Christian church, it has always historically become stronger, but then it has had difficulty when faced with an easy situation, and when people don't care about God, for it doesn't effect them just now. People who seek him because they want to know if he exists or not are the ones who meet him, and who are answered. Not people who simply want him to solve their problems.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The Bible was written by man to control the masses of people - to set up guidelines on how to act and in order to explain things that they didn't understand. The "one god" is no different than the many gods of Greece and Rome.

Because I believe the Bible to be God's Word, I think you are wrong about the purpose for which it was written. However, I believe that in the past it has been misused. I think that it has been used by people in the Medieval Ages and possibly other times because people believe it, and to manipulate the masses. I have a lot of problems with certain aspects of the Church hierarchy, and it is my belief that we should ask God who to appoint as pastors, deacons, priests, etc., rather than relying upon our own judgement and people's quallifications, both of which can be faulty.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
People should be good to others and do the right thing - not because of heaven and hell - but just because you should treat others the way you would want to be treated. That is the one rule and really the only rule that I feel is necessary. I don't steal - not because I'm afraid of hell or it's a sin - but because I wouldn't want someone to steal from me.

That's the Golden Rule, a part of the Bible. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Do you believe that if a person who is good but does not believe in god will go to hell or be punsihed in some form for not believing?

I have a few ideas on that, but I don't have any firm answer yes or no. Perhaps there are Christians that do have that answer. I don't think that you can make your way into heaven based upon your own righteousness; you have to have God wipe you clean of all sin. You know, there is one parable in the Bible that goes like this: There were two people, and both of them sinned. One of them sinned knowingly, and the other unknowingly. Jesus said that the one who sinned knowingly would be beaten with many blows as punishment, but the one who did it unknowingly would be beaten with few blows. The Bible says that the Lord is just, and I believe that he will judge everyone with justice.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The concept of original sin was the one thing that I was questioning and not believing in 2nd grade. I never believed in original sin - no matter how many people tried telling me that a baby that wasn't baptised and absolved of sin would go to limbo.

I believe in original sin, but I don't agree with infant baptism. I think that baptim has to be a conscious decision by the individual, it cannot be simply done for them. And I don't think that a baby that isn't baptised will go into limbo.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
I see....So you ask, and whatever happens happens. I'm sure I 've done this a few times in my lifetime already, , If the situation arises, I'll try again, but this isn't much of a revelation for me here! Thank you anyway!

I'm afraid you might well have misunderstood me, Lizra. I'm sure you have done what you're planning to do a few times in your lifetime already, and I doubt that if you do it again, God will answer any more than he did the other times. As I said to jerseydevil, plenty of people come to God when they come upon hard times, but it doesn't work that way. You have to honestly want God to reveal himself to you, not simply offer your troubles to him to change into blessings. People frequently only pray that God will solve their problems, but that isn't going to help. Their motive is for themselves to have less problems or for other people's problems to go away, not for God to reveal himself so that they can come to know him. Once a person comes to know God, then he slowly transforms their will to his will, and implants his nature within us, destroying the old. That is the reason why prayer is answered for Christians.

And when you pray that God will reveal himself to you, that is also a prayer that you can know that God wants to answer, because he has claimed to want a relationship with every human being. Therefore this prayer will be answered. You can set the method, but your heart needs to be aimed toward discovering him, not having things done for you.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
I see....So you ask, and whatever happens happens. I'm sure I 've done this a few times in my lifetime already, , If the situation arises, I'll try again, but this isn't much of a revelation for me here! Thank you anyway!

OK, I actually got some unexpected free time here, so I'd like to address Lizra's post, then lay a little more foundation for my upcoming answer to cass's and earniel's post. Lizra's first :

I think that you have rather a vending-machine mentality of prayer here (and I sure hope that you know, Lizra, that I mean absolutely no offense to you - I am just using that illustration because I think it really points out the full implications of your statement - "so you ask, and whatever happens happens.") So I think that if you really think about what you're saying, it really is something like this: "insert prayer in slot, push button, answer that I requested comes out at the bottom" (and if it doesn't, then kick the machine!) Well, let me ask you this: if your cute little boy asked you "mommy, could I please go and play on the freeway? I REEEELY want to, it looks like so much fun!", what would you say? You, as an adult, know SO much more than he does! You would lovingly say "NO".

Christians believe that God is all-knowing, and thus He can correctly and in our best interests answer a prayer either yes, no, or wait a while, it's not the right time yet. And "getting an answer" is only a small part of the purpose of prayer! Again, as both Lief and I have posted, one aspect of Christianity is that it is relational - we are also reminded to be thankful in our prayers, for we so easily forget all of our many blessings, and we are also told to pray for others. And sometimes, as I'm just starting to see, I think God's answer is "hang in there and keep praying ... that's not quite the question that I want you to ask me ... I have a much bigger blessing that I would rather give you!" See, prayer is also a process - as we spend time in prayer, we become more Christlike, and we will, by ourselves, see how some of our prayers in the past were, by God's great mercy and grace, answered with a "no".

I hope that helps - let me know if I can clarify.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I agree with you 100% US #1 (or is it JD?). Especially the John part, down with Paul. Ooops, sorry OT.

Can I ask why God allows so much pain in the world if He exists? I pray to God at last resort and He doesn't deliver. Another reason why I don't believe in Him. I really believe that we (humans) invented God and that the Bible is fiction (mostly). I'm glad your happy LE and Rian, but I think your happiness is in blind faith. Hmm, can you tell I'm depressed?

Why would you pray to someone/thing you don't believe in?

You have to remember, God is not the only 'being', 'spirit', 'whathaveyou' on the plane outside of Earth.

Also, I'm in agreement with Rian on the 'vending machine' prayer approach. God answers prayers when they're meant to be answered, which is not necessarily when we want them. Also, he may answer them, but not in the way we expect (or in a way that we even notice).

[Rían]

Sween, I haven't addressed your posts because the way I read it, you're not really wanting to discuss things, because you're really throwing out over-generalizations, don't you think? Wouldn't you agree, for example, that there are evil people that are not "religious"? I imagine that you've been really hurt by "religious" people, and I'm so sorry. But God is bigger than "religious" people, and if you truly and sincerely seek Him for your answers, He will give them to you, although they may not quite be what you would like! However, they are true and in your best interests. And God can use all things, even the evil ones that He has allowed for this present time, for our good and the good of others. For example, I imagine that you are a very compassionate person, because you have been hurt. (But I am getting ahead of myself - if you're interested, I am going to address the pain issue shortly). Try checking out the "Did Iluvatar make Melkor evil" thread in Sil or ME - we are discussing some related issues there that you might find interesting. If you have a specific question for me (without the overgeneralizations, please ), then let me know, and I'll put it in my queue I'm rather slow, though - very busy with small kids - so you'll have to be patient.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Why would you pray to someone/thing you don't believe in?

Actually, I haven't even touched on that issue yet - I will hopefully get to it in a week or so - I really need to lay some groundwork first so that my answers will make sense.

What I was trying to address was Lizra's belief that Christian prayer meant asking and then getting exactly what you asked for, and if it didn't work, then either prayer is worthless or God is not there or not powerful. That is most definitely NOT what Christian prayer is about.

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, and Starr Polish, you don't have to believe in God to pray that he will reveal himself if he exists. God is willing to answer that one, and he is waiting for each person to ask it. That's the point I'm trying to emphasize, for he will reveal himself to the person who requests to come to know him.

[Rían]

whoops - I read thru your post too quickly, Starr, and didn't realize you were quoting cass, not lizra. But my answer stands!

And it's very intriguing how people DO turn to prayer as a last resort - I think it shows that there is a very real sense of the presence of God in every person - we just don't want to acknowledge it, because it has so many frightening implications (there IS a being behind the universe - am I accountable to Him for my many evil acts?) (BTW, I'm not talking just murder here - Jesus equates just being angry with someone else with murder). (you see, it's all HEART issues!) But it is a FALSE fear (like someone with an operable disease who doesn't know much about doctors would be afraid), for the SOLUTION to this dilemma is provided by God - and actually, I don't want to get ahead of myself again. I'll just go ahead in the next post with the groundwork that I was talking about.

[Rían]

(BTW, Lief, I think you misinterpreted Starr's post the same way that I did - I think what Starr was pointing out was - why did cass even bother to pray if she didn't believe in God? )

Is that right, Starr? BTW, that's a good point about answered prayers - sometimes we ask, then we don't even notice the answer! But God is faithful.

[Lief Erikson]

I actually think that people turn to God, when in difficulty, out of desperation when they can't think of anything else to do. I could be wrong though.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
That's the Golden Rule, a part of the Bible. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

I know it is - I went to catholic school all my life. But it doesn't take someone to read the Bible to follow that or to believe in god.

And I thought this was a thread about Evolution being taught in school - not whether there is a god or not.

[Lief Erikson]

It is. It's also a contravertial thread prone to tangents, and this is a big one.

If the original topic revives, then so be it. I won't object.

[Rían]

That's certainly the title of the thread, and the people involved in the last few pages of posts have given their opinion on that topic and discussed it at great length, and we are now discussing issues that have arisen from the thoughts expressed about the thead topic. As long as it's ok with the mods, I think it's a very interesting discussion and I'd like to continue, for one.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
it doesn't take someone to read the Bible to follow that or to believe in god.

I agree.

[Rían]

I"ll start with a quote from jerseydevil:

People should be good to others and do the right thing - not because of heaven and hell - but just because you should treat others the way you would want to be treated.

Now I started with this quote, because I wanted to re-bring-up (points off on grammar, I realize ) the whole topic of morality. Now I'll quote from a post that I wrote WAY back on page 4:

One very interesting observable point that the TOE (th. of ev.) doesn't have any solution for is the very curious propensity of the human race to use the word "should". For ex, if someone bops you on the head for no good reason (i.e., they're not your sibling that is retaliating for you stealing their crayons ), your response would be "you SHOULDN'T have done that!" But the use of the word "should" implies that there is a moral law which has been violated. I won't even get into which moral law is correct, the very fact that all people have some moral law, whether you or I happen to agree with it or not, is enough to go on for now.

Okay, would you people agree with that? (that all people have some moral code, even though it may not be the same). See, jerseydevil, you yourself just used the word "should".

BTW, let me just state here that I'm not trying to do something tricky here! I am, however, trying to present some things that are not usually thought about, and I would like you to honestly think about them and evaluate honestly if you think they are true or not. I sure hope that you people will grant that I have been intellectually honest (whether or not you agree with my statements!) in the sense that I giving you my own thoughts, which I believe to be true, on the issues. I'm NOT, in any sense, trying to get you to believe something that I think is UNTRUE in order to snooker you into becoming a Christian! (i.e., "if I can just get them to swallow this ONE fib, then they'll become Christians, which I know is better for them, anyway - BWAHAHA!)

OK, I'm done with the post finally.

[Lizra]

I don't have a vending machine mentality towards prayer, really! I was just being polite to LE because that's the direction his posts about how God will "reveal" himself,seemed to be going.

LE, I'm fairly intellegent, and have been through many trials and tribulations over the years. You really aren't telling me anything new. I simply don't buy it.

[afro-elf]

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to go and read a bunch of authors like that simply because you aren't willing to try explaining what they believe on your own

ERROR LE,
1) its a matter of time which I did not have
2)and prudence.
it not better to read the original soucre than my second hand source

To sum up the belief in god has biological roots.

The switch above was (freewill) was a response to your comment bringing freewill in.


However, the THREAD is about evolution NOT about belief "attacking" belief



we should drop this and get back on track


so can we ( everyone posting) get back on track

[Lief Erikson]

Sorry if we misunderstood you, and we didn't mean to jump all over you. We were simply concerned that you were leaving, planning to act, but were certainly going to be disappointed because you were going about it wrong.

Ah, by the way, which part of what I said don't you buy? Or is it all of it?

It actually doesn't matter, it's entirely up to you whether you believe what I've said or not. I'm definitely not expecting anyone to take what I'm saying on my word alone. All that I'm trying to do is to convince you and others to give the God that I believe in a chance.

[afro-elf]

You posted while I was typing