Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Lief Erikson]

I just thought of another example of how evil can rebound to good. You know when the Noldor left in a rebellious act, Ilúvatar didn't make Morgoth punish them. The entire episode was all governed by free will, but when you look at it from a farther away perspective, you can see that all of it also was designed to bring the Noldor back to Ilúvatar.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
When God created the universe, he was not creating it in the way that you or I can really understand.

Truest thing said yet.

Compare history to a line on paper, and yourself to a dot which travels from left to right on the paper, forming that line....

The analogy is nice but it is over extended. It can't explain the way we experience our time. There must be an absolute time with reference to all existence. When we make a choice (in it's origin) we are on the edge of the wave of absolute time. If we are experiencing time in retrospect then our existence is past. We cannat change our past exept to fold back, to recede from the edge of the wave of absolute time and experience externally our own existence. To follow a line a in time prexistant isolates our existance from the vectors of all other events established at the absolute time. These things effect and constrain our choices to a finite set. There are events where all but one of the choices are precluded. The analogy likens us to a phonograph needle that may skip if it wants to be is still confined to a limited path.

Eru says that 'none can alter the music in my despite'....
I think perhaps it could be expressed this way:
Melkor wanted to change the music from it's stated purpose to his own purpose. But Iluvatar clearly says that none can alter the music in his despite. Does this mean that Eru wanted Melkor to change the music, or that melkor failed to alter the music significantly from it's original form? I think it's the latter. I think that, despite anything that evil men (or gods) do to resist, things will work out the way they were meant to. I do not think this shows that the music was designed to be rebelled againast, but simply that it was designed to work as intended even if resistance does occur.

Does that make sense?

I don't think the intent is that the music did not change. The tense of the statement is that he cannot make (as in ever) music that is not within the original intent. The next theme shows the greater complexity and some of the sorrow as a response to the discord of Melkor. When Iluvatar wept was it for the beauty or the bittersweet? The real answer is that Iluvatar's original design took into account the possibility of discord such as Melkor created. The greatest beauty in ME is within the children of Iluvatar to not only overcome the evil of Melkor but to thrive and be stronger for the overcoming.

Doesn't omnipotence include the power not to do something?

It does not allow for the original intent and action to result in something that was unintended or unforeseen. The intent to create beings capable of evil and a knowledge that they would likely do some evil acts does not constitute an evil intent in the creation only if there is not foreknowledge.

The ainur could have cast melkor down themselves-they had done it twice before. But both of those times the struggle was catastrophic, and destroyed or reshaped most of the world. (There's a reason they called it the war of wrath). Remember, when the Valar eventually do attack Morgoth, they end up destroying Beleriand. It comes down to morgoth's ring-and action against him will have to destroy the very earth.

The effort to cast Melkor down would be the same no matter who does it. The mess usually resulted from physically destroying his creations as well. That may have been neccessary to prevent corrpution of others coming accross them. I think the intent of Ulmo was not chared by all the Valar so that is why he acted by proxy, not because Turgon was more powerful. I will dicuss this more when we discuss that chapter.

Of course I remember. I'm Cirdan

[MasterMothra]

"He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design"

thats incorrect. he said that morgoth could create no tune that did not have its uttermost source in eru.

"However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil. "

illuvatar did create evil, he created everything. evil did not just happen, it was displayed through melkor in the music, and that music has its utmost source in eru. so evil can be traced back to eru.


"The Noldor betrayed him, and Ilúvatar permitted them to go against him, but punished them by permitting Morgoth to work his evil against him."

if they are permitted, the wheres the free will?

"None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil "

it shows cirdan's view, and he's entitled to that. just as you are entitled to yours.

since everyone likes to quote scripture, i've got a couple of my favs to share.

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

[Wayfarer]

cirdan's...he's

A she, friend. He's a she.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design. Morgoth wasn't designed to carry out evil, he was permitted to carry out evil because he was given free will. And Ilúvatar's plan was capable of using even Morgoth's evil for good.

Definitely.

I know that Ilúvatar's character being so villainous isn't supported in any way by any of Tolkien's works. However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil.

I don't believe he was predestined but more inclined by his nature than the others. It is not malicious on Iluvatar's part to create a catalyst for greater good. Is one sine greater than the sum of all the goodness? I don't think so.

I agree with you that Ilúvatar probably permits evil to enable his creatures to come to a greater goodness. That doesn't demonstrate a "fill in" creation, though.
None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil

He definitely creates evil in the form of Melkor. It does not mean that his intent is evil. He can have good intent in the totality of his creation and stilll create something that is evil as a vehilcle to the greater good. The "fill in" is what he asks of his creations. He states he has many things in mind of which the Ainur are unaware. The presence of free will does not require evil.

So to conclude, Cirdan, I think that this post shows I'm in agreement with you on a lot of the points you brought forth. For once .

It's not such a terrible thing, is it?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
A she, friend. He's a she.

That's news to me...

Guess I better start peeing sitting down.

[MasterMothra]

lol

[Wayfarer]

Oops! Had you confuse with BoP there.

[Rían]

I posted with someone for the longest time who had a male LoTR name for her Entmoot name AND an avatar of a male character, and she turned out to be female My Entmoot name is the name of a lady in the Sil (as I am female ), but it's not too well known, and actually looks rather like Ryan, a male name - I wonder how many people think I'm a man? (my amazing command of logic would make people tend to think that I'm male )

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Oops! Had you confuse with BoP there.

I'm flattered by the comparison. Have you waded through the "Picture of Me" thread? Most of trhe people I thought were guys.. weren't.

[Rían]

I did a bit, but many pics were links that were no longer there. The ones that WERE there were fun, though!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I did a bit, but many pics were links that were no longer there. The ones that WERE there were fun, though!

I hope you noted that BoP and I look nothing alike.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
"He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design"

thats incorrect. he said that morgoth could create no tune that did not have its uttermost source in eru.

Actually, it does say that. Simply in another place. I suppose I'll have to find it for you . . .

Originally posted by MasterMothra
"However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil. "

illuvatar did create evil, he created everything. evil did not just happen, it was displayed through melkor in the music, and that music has its utmost source in eru. so evil can be traced back to eru.

Not necessarily. Permission for evil can be traced back to Ilúvatar, and that comes with free choice.

Ilúvatar didn't have to create evil, for consider this: How did Ilúvatar himself come to be? Did he create himself? By human standpoint, it doesn't make sense. He always was, because he exists outside of time. It's a dimension where things don't have to be made to exist; they simply are. Ilúvatar's character being good, I don't think he is evil in any way, or is responsible for evil. All that he is responsible for is giving us the free will that he gave us. But it is our choice what to do with the free will, so that responsibility doesn't have to fall on his shoulders either.

"The Noldor betrayed him, and Ilúvatar permitted them to go against him, but punished them by permitting Morgoth to work his evil against him."

if they are permitted, the wheres the free will?

Permission doesn't mean forcing. You allow the people, because you gave them free will, to do what they like. They can go against good, but that doesn't mean you're making them go against good. If they do evil, it isn't because you're forcing them to. Otherwise you can blame any evil deed that you commit on God.

"None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil "

it shows cirdan's view, and he's entitled to that. just as you are entitled to yours.

Quite true. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it though .

since everyone likes to quote scripture, i've got a couple of my favs to share.

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

He is good to all. But if he didn't punish evil or wrongdoing, then he wouldn't be just. And if you aren't just, then how can you be righteous? Mercy and justice are both strong parts of the Lord's character. He never punishes unjustly.

Here I'm sure we get into questions of acts of mass destruction that the Lord commits throughout the Bible. He hates sin, and he hates it completely. Throughout the Bible, he's destroying it. At first, during the Old Testament and part of the New, he acts with the sword. Later on, in the New Testament, he lets his own son die that sin might be destroyed in people's lives.

If you point out people that were innocent, yet were killed (Such as Job's children, for example), this doesn't have to be a contradiction either. What happens after death is in God's hands, and since he is just, he will do what's right with them after death. If you want to contest whether or not God can be just while committing mass killings, you might want to make a thread on it in General Messages. I think it's too totally off topic for this discussion.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
If you want to contest whether or not God can be just while committing mass killings, you might want to make a thread on it in General Messages. I think it's too totally off topic for this discussion.

Yes, we wouldn't want to drag religion into this now would we?

[Lief Erikson]

No, certainly not! Religion . . . in this discussion? What an idea!



Oh, some of you might be interested in what I found when looking through the Valaquenta today. This passage is about Melkor, and is a good verification, I think, of my theory that it was through pride and envy that he fell into evil.

From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I hope you noted that BoP and I look nothing alike.

[Rían]

Religion! *gasp*

Oh, BTW, here's another Letters quote for you ... Wait! why is everyone running away?? oh well ...

by JRRT, letter #183
In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honor.

And re the yin/yang thing - JRRT has said that evil is corrupted good, NOT equal and opposite to good. This was an interesting bit, from the same letter:

by JRRT:
In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible.

[Rían]

And re your Bible quotes, MM - do you want some of us to take a quick cut at a response, or should we start a new thread, like Lief suggested, because it is rather a new (and would be long and complicated!) topic.

And did you see my post about reading "The Problem of Pain"? I'll quote a quick bit that I think is good:

from The Problem of Pain, by C.S. Lewis:
By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingkindness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness - the desire to see others than the self happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, "What does it matter so long as they are contented?" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all." Not many people, I admit, would formulate a theology in precisely those terms: but a conception not very different lurks at the back of many minds. I do not claim to be an exception: I should very much like to live in a universe which was governed on such lines. But since it is abundantly clear that I don't , and since I have reason to believe, nevertheless, that God is Love, I conclude that my conception of love needs correction.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
quote:
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From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself
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That was my sig when I first joined the 'Moot.

[Wayfarer]

I'm flattered by the comparison. Have you waded through the "Picture of Me" thread? Most of trhe people I thought were guys.. weren't.

Don't be flattered. The fact that we can reaasonably discuss something like this puts you quite a bit higher in my estimation,

I don't believe he was predestined but more inclined by his nature than the others. It is not malicious on Iluvatar's part to create a catalyst for greater good. Is one sin greater than the sum of all the goodness? I don't think so.

I agree that Melkor's nature was more inclined to sin. This is partially because he was the greatest of the ainur (somebody had to be ) And he became conceited.

I think that the very traits which made morgoth so terrible-the desire to create and dominate-were the corruption of those traits which would have been the most useful for good.

Permission for evil can be traced back to Ilúvatar, and that comes with free choice.

I think what it boils down to is this: Is it better that all have free will, and some choose evil, or that none have free will, and be forced to do good?

Or, to look at it another way: Is it better that the universe be peopled with perfect automatons who do everything correctly, Or living beings that sometimes screw up?

I think the answer is obvious. It is better that all choose or reject goodness of their own free will, than that it be forced on them. We would hope that everyone would choose good, but if even one chooses good, it is better that the choice be given.

Ilúvatar's character being good, I don't think he is evil in any way, or is responsible for evil.

Aye, There's the rub. It depends on what your view of evil is.
The definition I cited earlier ('deviation from will of the Supreme Being') makes it impossible for Eru to commit evil. I don't like to argue by definition, but I really can't see any other way to make it clear.

I do believe that, in creating self-willed individuals who can deviate from his will, he creates the possibility of evil.

So 'did eru make melkor evil?' The answer is no. He created melkor with exclusively positive attributes, and one of these, free will, contains the possibility to do evil. But Manwe and Varda likewise had free will, and they choose to do good.