Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think what Finrod was saying was something he believed and was taught and hoped for.

Remember that the Silmarillion is the account of the Ainur and the First Age according to the reckoning of the Eldar.

[Elemmírë]

But if it was simply something he had been taught, why would he mention seeing it as if in a vision? And from the preceding paragraph, I get the impression that the Elves believe that with the end of Arda they will cease to exist.

[Findegil]

I think Arda Remade is mentioned a few times in all the scipts of Tolkien. On place is concerned with the dwarves (and I think it is also in "Of Aule und Yavanna" in "The Silmarillion" - but I did not check). It is said there, that the Dwarves report that it will be their fate to aid Aule after the end of the world to remake it.
And other places I can think of is "Myths Transformed" and Laws and customes" - but again I check neither place.
Anyway if we do not consider "Lost Tales" which has some clear visions of doubt full reliability for later versions of the mythologie, the Athrabeth together with the Ainulindale gives the best picture of Arda remade: A world made by the second music, thus in perfect harmony. Inhabited by Man and Elves, with Elves remebering all the past ages of Arda while man live naturaly without that full memory and are the main subcreative agents in Arda Remade. (That is at last how I precive the picture.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Valandil]

Splurged on my way home from work: bought both "Morgoth's Ring" and Karen Fonstad's Atlas.

Research expenses...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Remember that the Silmarillion is the account of the Ainur and the First Age according to the reckoning of the Eldar.

JRRT last concept of it, although not much incorporated into the published simimerillion, is that the it was a combination of the knowledge and mythology of the eldar, the tales of the War of the great jewels, all as having paseed through Numenor (human) and influenced by and modigyed by its mythology. Thus it is a misture of filtered history, sagas and mythology. Even the published SIL obviously containts, within its own reality, much mythylogical and fictional matter mixed with its history.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Splurged on my way home from work: bought both "Morgoth's Ring" and Karen Fonstad's Atlas.

Research expenses...

You better hurry and finish that research, Val.

Because my mind works in strange manners, when I was reading Herodotus for a class last semester, I immediately thought of the Athrabeth. Basically, what I'm referring to is a writing by Herodotus where he gives an account of what is going on in debates at the Persian Court. Now, clearly since he wasn't there, this whole thing is created, though it surely has some truths in it.

This made me wonder about the history behind the Athrabeth. In the mythology, who wrote the thing? Was it Finrod (though surely he wouldn't have wanted to publicise his brother's particular problem)? Or was it someone else who possibly (though also possibly not) knew all the people involved and could make an accurate guess of things that might have been said...?

[Sister Golden Hair]

As I was re-reading this beautiful piece of work, I started thinking:

Do any of you get the impression that some of the things that Finrod said went over Andreth's head?

[Rían]

(yay! Great thread!)

Yes, I definitely do, and in no small part because of her bitterness over no nookie with Aegnor!

(see wraiths rpg thread for explanation!)

Seriously - yes, I do, and in no small part because of her bitterness over Aegnor. I also get the feeling that some things Andreth said went over Finrod's head, but he was really striving to understand, to the best of his (very notable) abilities.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Seriously - yes, I do, and in no small part because of her bitterness over Aegnor. I also get the feeling that some things Andreth said went over Finrod's head, but he was really striving to understand, to the best of his (very notable) abilities.

Are you prepared to say what things went over his head?

One thing that I thought of after I finished this time was that it seemed to go over her head as he said it, but at the end, she knew exactly about everything he meant. She may not have accepted it, but she knew deep down and I think was in deniel until the bitter end about his [Aegnor's] feelings, and his death to come.

For instance: she has no sympathy for death experienced by the Elves. According to her, it is brief and there may be pain, but they may return to life. At the end however, she tells Finrod to tell Aegnor, not to be careles, and not to seek danger without need. Why? You think because in the long run she really admits the differences between Elves and Men?

[Rían]

(darn it, the first paragraph always makes me laugh, because the name "Boron" sounds so much like a bleach cleanser!!)

I think some things went over his head, but only because his essential nature is elvish, not human. Altho if ANY elf would understand humans, it would be Finrod Felagund, "the Friend of Men". I'm looking back thru it now, and one thing I see is how Finrod sees, but can't quite understand, the human way of looking beyond things - "But do you know that the Eldar say of Men that they look at no thing for itself; that if they study it, it is to discover something else; that if they love it, it is only (so it seems) because it reminds them of some other dearer thing? Yet with what is this comparison? Where are these other things?"

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

For instance: she has no sympathy for death experienced by the Elves. According to her, it is brief and there may be pain, but they may return to life. At the end however, she tells Finrod to tell Aegnor, not to be careles, and not to seek danger without need. Why? You think because in the long run she really admits the differences between Elves and Men?

Well, Finrod did tell her that Aegnor would abide in Mandos until the end of Arda. Perhaps she realised that in such a situation, the differences between death for Elves and Men are not so extreme?

...

RÃ*an, I agree with you that those lines are very important. I think that despite their similarities, the fates of Men and Elves (and therefore their mindsets as well) are too far apart for them to truly, completely understand one another.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

For instance: she has no sympathy for death experienced by the Elves. According to her, it is brief and there may be pain, but they may return to life. At the end however, she tells Finrod to tell Aegnor, not to be careles, and not to seek danger without need. Why? You think because in the long run she really admits the differences between Elves and Men?

My thought is that Andreth found what little comfort there was in the knowledge that she and Aegnor still shared the same world. If he should die, then they would be separated, perhaps for ever, at least as long as the world exist.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It seems at times that Andreth is so bitter about her rejection that she often is critical of the race of Elves and defensive of Men. She tells Finrod that she does not need comfort or want it. She seems though to plead a case for Men that seeks pity but shuns it.

Seems like she has a great love/hate relationship with the Elves.

[Artanis]

It's been a long time since I read the athrabeth, but this is my impression from memory: Andreth says she does not need comfort, but we don't have to believe her. Everyone needs comfort from time to time, if we won't accept that, then we will become lonely and bitter, like Andreth. But comfort often comes with pity, and that is what Andreth does NOT want, especially not from someone who (she thinks) regard themselves as 'higher' than Men.

The rejection in itself is not what makes her bitter and critical, it is the reason behind, or what she believes to be the reason.

I have come to think that the beauty in this story is not about the love between Andreth and Aegnor. The beauty lies in how two persons with fundamental differences in their mindsets meet and talk, and through their exchange of thoughts both are able to gain, if not complete then at least a better understanding of each other.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

My thought is that Andreth found what little comfort there was in the knowledge that she and Aegnor still shared the same world. If he should die, then they would be separated, perhaps for ever, at least as long as the world exist.

Yes, I agree. Also, it's just kind of a reflex-thing: you can pretend to not care as much as you really do, but when it comes down to it, you just gotta say things like "be careful!"

I know when my husband leaves on trips where he's driving, I absolutely CANNOT stop myself from saying, "Drive carefully!" It's not like I think he would be planning to drive unsafely unless I said that, but I just can't help it!

Originally Posted by SGH

It seems at times that Andreth is so bitter about her rejection that she often is critical of the race of Elves and defensive of Men. She tells Finrod that she does not need comfort or want it. She seems though to plead a case for Men that seeks pity but shuns it.

Seems like she has a great love/hate relationship with the Elves.

Yes, I agree! That's part of what makes it so interesting - the emotions flying around in different directions.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I have come to think that the beauty in this story is not about the love between Andreth and Aegnor. The beauty lies in how two persons with fundamental differences in their mindsets meet and talk, and through their exchange of thoughts both are able to gain, if not complete then at least a better understanding of each other.

I agree, and that's a big part of what I like at Entmoot!

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I agree, and that's a big part of what I like at Entmoot!

Yes, that's why I keep reading some of the discussions in gm, though I don't participate directly.

[Rían]

People are interesting, aren't they?!

[Finrod Felagund]

I sooooo need to get ahold of this.

[Valandil]

* bump *