Relativism VS. Absoulte - Page 13

afro-elf · 07-30-2002, 07:36 AM

Sam you implied that religion was the birth of hospitals. NO ONE here said that religion had NOTHING to do with it. But that it was not the SOLE PRIMER MOVER Didn't you read elvellon wrote?:

Quote:

Well it is natural that less medically savvy cultures would turn to religion (or simply the supernatural) as part of the healing process. After all, it is in dire situations (like when you or a close relative of yours are in pain) that people feel greater need to spiritual comfort and hope. So that’s why the association between religion and medicine started.

so please don't try to straw man our statements

secondly you are all over the place with your arguments bringing in side stuff with nothing do with your goal. be succint and on target it makes your position far more clear.

like this

Quote:

Ok I want to ask you guys a question...where did the idea of No right No wrong come from? Back in the 50's and before there was no such thing. So if morals was made up by the society...then where did this idea come from? Do we sih to go back to Eden THAT bad and talk to God again FACE TO FACE? Sweet!! Or is it the other way around. Do we wish to deny there IS a God? Just an idea and please dont tar and feather me for it.

cut away the dross and get to the core

emplynx · 07-30-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anduril
Emplynx and Pascal, sitting in a tree.....

t-a-l-k-i-n-g

Andúril · 07-30-2002, 10:05 AM

Yeah, that's secret Christian code for :

xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxx xxx

Blackheart · 07-30-2002, 10:42 AM

Jeez.

If you people had actually read the Gospel, you'd know that christians are relativists.

emplynx · 07-30-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart

Jeez.

If you people had actually read the Gospel, you'd know that christians are relativists.

I have read the Bible and I don't know that. Explain please.

Blackheart · 07-30-2002, 02:40 PM

Primarily, Christians are concerned with Sin.

Not Evil. Not Good. Sin is apparantly defined as that which seperates someone from god.

Which is one of the reasons early christianity was concerned with things like "purity of heart". Actions were not at all what condemned a person, it was what was in their heart, their motive etc. One of the entire elements of the movement was that the law was dead, and thet the Old Testement was inapplicable. Particularly because it dealt with actions, like being circumcised, or sacrifices, or eating with a particular hand etc.

Well that's the crux of the matter right there. Suddenly actions are no longer absolute. They are relative to the intentions of the actor.

emplynx · 07-30-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
Primarily, Christians are concerned with Sin.

Not Evil. Not Good. Sin is apparantly defined as that which seperates someone from god.

Which is one of the reasons early christianity was concerned with things like "purity of heart". Actions were not at all what condemned a person, it was what was in their heart, their motive etc. One of the entire elements of the movement was that the law was dead, and thet the Old Testement was inapplicable. Particularly because it dealt with actions, like being circumcised, or sacrifices, or eating with a particular hand etc.

Well that's the crux of the matter right there. Suddenly actions are no longer absolute. They are relative to the intentions of the actor.

Interesting point, and I agree... to an extent. I agree that the purity of the heart is very important, but there is still an absolute law given through out the New Testement. I couldn't go a rape a girl and justify it by any "purity of the heart" excuse. So yes, the old testement law doesn't mean the same thing as it did before, but the law is still absolute.

Blackheart · 07-31-2002, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
Interesting point, and I agree... to an extent. I agree that the purity of the heart is very important, but there is still an absolute law given through out the New Testement. I couldn't go a rape a girl and justify it by any "purity of the heart" excuse. So yes, the old testement law doesn't mean the same thing as it did before, but the law is still absolute.

Unfortunately "the law" has no application anymore. It depends on the circumstance. The only "absolute law" given in the new testement is the one about love. I find it interesting that anyone could call a law based on an abstract principle "absolute".

Look at Percival, for example. He almost succumbed to the temptation of "raping" a woman to save her life, however it turned out she was a demoness, and therefore it was uneccesary, because she wasn't actually "alive".

So yes, even in that case, relative intent applies. I'll admit, it's awfully difficult to find a situation where you would have to rape a woman to save her life, but apparantly there is a loophole for just such an occasion.

Wayfarer · 07-31-2002, 12:59 PM

Blackheart, you are correct, in a sense.

But christianity also maintains that God is the only good, and so good is that which seeks to serve him, and bad is what rebels against him.

Purity of heart... Actually, christians are concerned with repentance and salvation. That is, that someone has realized that they are a sinner (which, as Xandre pointed out, means seperation from god) and incapable fo improving themself, and asked god to save them.

As long as they are sincere, purity of heart has little to do with it. The person who repents ont hier deathbed because of an overwhelming fear of hell, the person who does so as a child because it pleases thier parents, the middle aged person who does so because life sucks, and the one who wishes to simply know his creator, are all equally saved.

yes... there's a catch. Since all are equally saved, they've all made themself open to god's changing them. As I said earlier, imperfect human goodness cannot bring you into the presense of god, but the presence of god works continually to perfect that goodness and weed out the badness. And so we expect (rightly) a positive shift in a christian's life, and are worried when there isn't.

Chirsianity is set apart from popular religion in that religion (even when claiming to be a variant of christianity) depends on merely human efforts, while christianity depends on god's work upon man.

samwise of the shire · 07-31-2002, 05:19 PM

Ok Afro I'll try and do that. But I could apply the same for you. Cut the dross and get to the core. Or in other words talk plainer. I dont understand what you meant by "Dont straw Man us" or whatever that was. I dont get stuff like that very easily. I have a very confusing mind and it is easily confused.
Dang it all I'm sounding like Dogberry from Much ado about nothing. You know what. I think I'm gonna quit this.
Been nice hobnobbing with you all,
Sam

Rána Eressëa · 07-31-2002, 07:14 PM

Nothing is absolute. That is the only absolute.

afro-elf · 07-31-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Ok Afro I'll try and do that. But I could apply the same for you. Cut the dross and get to the core. Or in other words talk plainer. I dont understand what you meant by "Dont straw Man us" or whatever that was

There is a difference between extreanous and not sequitor things and not knowing jargon.

or to put it simply there is a difference between adding things to an argument that have nothing to do with your point and lacking certain vocabulary

Quote:

I have a very confusing mind and it is easily confused

ah.... no comment

sorry to see you leave

Andúril · 08-01-2002, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Azalea:
I meant that the fact that humans don't eat their young is proof of the existence of God.

MMmmmmm.....mmmhehe.....mwaahahahah.

Quote:

Continues:
I am aware of my existence AND am able to understand what my existence means to others; therefore, God exists.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha.

I don't think you understand how much I needed that.

***azalea*** · 08-01-2002, 02:23 PM

Okay then, what's YOUR explanation -- not just invalidating my statement, but giving your explanation for higher thinking, etc., as I brought up in my post? (I'm not being argumentative, I really am interested to know what you think).

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-01-2002, 06:18 PM

Quote:

I am aware of my existence AND am able to understand what my existence means to others; therefore, God exists.

I'm afraid I don't follow. . .

Rána Eressëa · 08-01-2002, 09:18 PM

Quote:

I am aware of my existence AND am able to understand what my existence means to others; therefore, God exists.

I was always wondering why the human species has yet to develop their intelligence any further . . .

Quick question. What do the Christians think about this: http://godlessamericans.org

Arathorn · 08-01-2002, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa

I was always wondering why the human species has yet to develop their intelligence any further . . .

That comment has probably been said before (millenia probably). But I'm not sure. But remember that, if we are to believe the theory of evolution, we've only been humans for a very short period compared to other species. Looks like most of the knowledge goes into paper, cdroms, hard disks, and other forms of archives. Oh no! What do you mean by intelligence? Collective? Individual?

Quote:

Quick question. What do the Christians think about this: http://godlessamericans.org

I'm catholic, as I've already posted ages ago but I'm no literalist when it comes to religious concepts and beliefs.

I think they should if they want to. I think your country allows for such freedoms. Hopefully, it'll be an eye-opener to both the non-theists and also to the theists.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 12:34 AM

The only species that even thinks about death is humans - the only ones with the capacity to. And what do we do? Fear it. Don't tell me you don't. Everyone has some part of their being that fears it. Why? Because we don't know what happens after death - none of us has ever died and lived to tell about it. Will we be greeted with pearly gates? A fiery archway? Perhaps, blackness and nevermore? We can't prove anything - and so we fear it.

I, on the otherhand, don't fear what it is to come after death. I don't see why I should. Human beings are worse than the rest of the living species - the smarter in technology we get and the more God-like power that is put into our fingertips - the more violent we become. Why do you think we always perceive intelligent extraterrestrials as hostile? Because we see a reflection of ourselves (we are, after all, the only thing we know) and their advanced civilization, which occured from the abuse of intricate knowledge and power-hungry beings.

Speaking of god-like power: God's wrath in the Bible, anyone? I sure wouldn't want to be around that. The only reason he's so violent is because we crafted him out of our own image to begin with. Go figure.

So exactly how are we worthy of Pearly Gates and Paradise on the other side?

God gives weak people comfort. The idea that someone is always watching over them because they don't have the self-power to look after themselves. Because of our evil, we grab for something glittering thing and cling to it, hoping that it will fix everything wrong with the world - hence, we don't fix things ourself, and it all goes downhill.

I believe that there are other more individually intelligent beings out there somewhere, who live without laws, without hate, without love, in a community that realizes it's up to them to keep peace. Peace and perfection isn't pleasure and heaven - its devoid of all things and is flawless - seeing as how love is a flaw since it leads to hate (someone trying to steal your loved one would piss you off, eh?) then there would be no love. Tragic to you. Everlasting peace for them.

Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die. Can you honestly tell me you want to?

Lizra · 08-02-2002, 12:39 AM

How do you know humans are the only species that thinks about death? I can't believe that! I don't fear death cause I don't know what happens.....nothing happens, you're dead, gone, soon to be forgotton (three generations). I fear it cause I won't be here to do my work. Will someone else do the things I do to help others? God is just an explanation for things people don't understand, Life is rough, comfort is good!

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 12:45 AM

Humans are the only species on this planet that do. We're the only ones with the mental capacity for it, as I've mentioned earlier. Let's say a cat runs across a four-lane road with cars coming straight at him - sure, he's in fear - he doesn't know what the heck those things are speeding for him. But does he think, "Oh no, it might kill me!" No, he doesn't.

And I wasn't speaking of everyone everyone. It's in general terms. Most people do fear death.

I didn't say God's only purpose was giving weak people comfort; another one would be giving gullible people an explanation for everything they don't understand. One of the downsides for being as deep-thinking as we are.

07-30-2002, 10:42 AM	#244
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Jeez. If you people had actually read the Gospel, you'd know that christians are relativists. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

07-30-2002, 02:40 PM	#246
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Primarily, Christians are concerned with Sin. Not Evil. Not Good. Sin is apparantly defined as that which seperates someone from god. Which is one of the reasons early christianity was concerned with things like "purity of heart". Actions were not at all what condemned a person, it was what was in their heart, their motive etc. One of the entire elements of the movement was that the law was dead, and thet the Old Testement was inapplicable. Particularly because it dealt with actions, like being circumcised, or sacrifices, or eating with a particular hand etc. Well that's the crux of the matter right there. Suddenly actions are no longer absolute. They are relative to the intentions of the actor. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

07-31-2002, 12:59 PM	#249
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Blackheart, you are correct, in a sense. But christianity also maintains that God is the only good, and so good is that which seeks to serve him, and bad is what rebels against him. Purity of heart... Actually, christians are concerned with repentance and salvation. That is, that someone has realized that they are a sinner (which, as Xandre pointed out, means seperation from god) and incapable fo improving themself, and asked god to save them. As long as they are sincere, purity of heart has little to do with it. The person who repents ont hier deathbed because of an overwhelming fear of hell, the person who does so as a child because it pleases thier parents, the middle aged person who does so because life sucks, and the one who wishes to simply know his creator, are all equally saved. yes... there's a catch. Since all are equally saved, they've all made themself open to god's changing them. As I said earlier, imperfect human goodness cannot bring you into the presense of god, but the presence of god works continually to perfect that goodness and weed out the badness. And so we expect (rightly) a positive shift in a christian's life, and are worried when there isn't. Chirsianity is set apart from popular religion in that religion (even when claiming to be a variant of christianity) depends on merely human efforts, while christianity depends on god's work upon man. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

07-31-2002, 05:19 PM	#250
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	Ok Afro I'll try and do that. But I could apply the same for you. Cut the dross and get to the core. Or in other words talk plainer. I dont understand what you meant by "Dont straw Man us" or whatever that was. I dont get stuff like that very easily. I have a very confusing mind and it is easily confused. Dang it all I'm sounding like Dogberry from Much ado about nothing. You know what. I think I'm gonna quit this. Been nice hobnobbing with you all, Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

08-02-2002, 12:34 AM	#258
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	The only species that even thinks about death is humans - the only ones with the capacity to. And what do we do? Fear it. Don't tell me you don't. Everyone has some part of their being that fears it. Why? Because we don't know what happens after death - none of us has ever died and lived to tell about it. Will we be greeted with pearly gates? A fiery archway? Perhaps, blackness and nevermore? We can't prove anything - and so we fear it. I, on the otherhand, don't fear what it is to come after death. I don't see why I should. Human beings are worse than the rest of the living species - the smarter in technology we get and the more God-like power that is put into our fingertips - the more violent we become. Why do you think we always perceive intelligent extraterrestrials as hostile? Because we see a reflection of ourselves (we are, after all, the only thing we know) and their advanced civilization, which occured from the abuse of intricate knowledge and power-hungry beings. Speaking of god-like power: God's wrath in the Bible, anyone? I sure wouldn't want to be around that. The only reason he's so violent is because we crafted him out of our own image to begin with. Go figure. So exactly how are we worthy of Pearly Gates and Paradise on the other side? God gives weak people comfort. The idea that someone is always watching over them because they don't have the self-power to look after themselves. Because of our evil, we grab for something glittering thing and cling to it, hoping that it will fix everything wrong with the world - hence, we don't fix things ourself, and it all goes downhill. I believe that there are other more individually intelligent beings out there somewhere, who live without laws, without hate, without love, in a community that realizes it's up to them to keep peace. Peace and perfection isn't pleasure and heaven - its devoid of all things and is flawless - seeing as how love is a flaw since it leads to hate (someone trying to steal your loved one would piss you off, eh?) then there would be no love. Tragic to you. Everlasting peace for them. Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die. Can you honestly tell me you want to? Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 12:37 AM.

07-30-2002, 10:05 AM	#243
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Yeah, that's secret Christian code for : xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxx xxx

07-31-2002, 07:14 PM	#251
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Nothing is absolute. That is the only absolute.

08-01-2002, 02:23 PM	#254
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Okay then, what's YOUR explanation -- not just invalidating my statement, but giving your explanation for higher thinking, etc., as I brought up in my post? (I'm not being argumentative, I really am interested to know what you think).

08-02-2002, 12:39 AM	#259
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	How do you know humans are the only species that thinks about death? I can't believe that! I don't fear death cause I don't know what happens.....nothing happens, you're dead, gone, soon to be forgotton (three generations). I fear it cause I won't be here to do my work. Will someone else do the things I do to help others? God is just an explanation for things people don't understand, Life is rough, comfort is good! Last edited by Lizra : 08-02-2002 at 12:44 AM.

08-02-2002, 12:45 AM	#260
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Humans are the only species on this planet that do. We're the only ones with the mental capacity for it, as I've mentioned earlier. Let's say a cat runs across a four-lane road with cars coming straight at him - sure, he's in fear - he doesn't know what the heck those things are speeding for him. But does he think, "Oh no, it might kill me!" No, he doesn't. And I wasn't speaking of everyone everyone. It's in general terms. Most people do fear death. I didn't say God's only purpose was giving weak people comfort; another one would be giving gullible people an explanation for everything they don't understand. One of the downsides for being as deep-thinking as we are. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 12:51 AM.

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