Abortion.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh, silly, unsuspecting goose! Of COURSE you're debating; you're stating your viewpoint in a forum wherein others are obliged to state theirs.

Quick definitions (Debate)


noun: the formal presentation of and opposition to a stated proposition (usually followed by a vote)
noun: a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal
verb: argue with one another (Example: "We debated the question of abortion")
verb: discuss the pros and cons of an issue
verb: think about carefully; weigh
verb: have an argument about something

well sorry, I can't help it.

[Butterbeer]

my god Lotesse ...

i literally do not know what to write ...



don't they have anything stronger than these MAD thingies?

again, my admiration to you too for being strong enough to talk about it: though of course i guess and totally understand that you won't want to talk about it!

... lost for words ...

my sincerest and strongest thoughts go with you!

( and to tree-dweller too of course)


sincerely, BB

[Rían]

I'm so sorry to hear that, Lotesse

*extends moothug to include Lotesse, too*

IMO, rape is one of the most horrible things that can happen to a woman. I"m so sorry to hear that it happened to 2 wonderful Mooters here. You were terribly wronged.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

It IS a really, really, REALLY really hard thing to say, even on the moot where none of us actually see each other's faces. Tree Dweller, you're incredibly strong to have been able to say it, now since you have, I'll cop up to the fact that yes, so was I. Twice, two entirely different times, both by stalkers whom I didn't even know. The first time WAS my first time, I'd been a virgin. And it made me pregnant, and I aborted. *phew* There. I said it. Thank you to Tree Dweller, whose courage and fearlessness about frankly speaking up on such horribly private, sensitive stuff, man oh man my heart is racing right now...

Lotesse . . . I just totally can't begin to imagine . . . I am so, so sorry about that.

Know at least that there are many people here on Entmoot that love you deeply. I care a great deal about you too, though I've been scared to say that because of our past misunderstandings. You really are among friends here, and no one is going to stop loving you.

[Nurvingiel]

Text seems so inadequate here, but I do want to extend a sincere (textified) hug to Lotesse and Tree Dweller.


On a lighter note, Rohirrim TR, there's nothing wrong with debating. No one, especially here at the Moot, will criticise you for stating an argument and defending it! Now you may debate disclaimer-free.

[The Gaffer]

God, words fail. I know several people in RL who have suffered similar experiences. All of them were changed by it and had to fight hard to get over it.

I tip my hat to you both for your strength and courage. I hope that talking about it helps.

(Some) men are disgusting.

[Tree Dweller]

Lotesse, I know just how hard that was to write to us all.
It takes a kind of courage we don't think we have.

I hope that during this debate it never felt like I was belittling your osition.
I have never been through your exact situation, so I could never pretend to understand exactly what it is like to deal with it.

This whole issue is very touchy, filled with passion and anger sometimes, but I believe that is exactly why we should all talk about it.

I have personally lived both side of it and now have came out with one very strong opinion, but I am not out to change the world.
If I , in my life, could help just one young woman to make the decision she won't regret forever.. then that would be just fine.
I have just seen too many woman devastated by what they did, or were sometimes forced to do.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Tree Dweller

My humble opinion on that would be our extremely "me-centered" society and way of life. If all anyone is conserned about is pleasing themselves, then it is only natural that they wish to take away any consequences of their actions.
(To be clear, what I am speaking of is people carelessly getting pregnant, not rape....which makes up at least 90% of abortions)

true in part... but, as i say, individuals differ... i had a friend who became pregnant while on the pill... the reason? she was taking antibiotics which can counteract the effects... this could be called "careless", but it is a lot to expect from a teen to know all the details

which is why i am for strong preventative measures... sex education very early in life... and not just the nuts and bolts stuff, but the emotional side... easily-available free contraception without parental consent for all

i'm curious how many pro-lifers have thought about the consequences of making abortion illegal?

if rowe v. wade was overturned it would go back to the states... let's say a state like texas made it illegal... abortions would be less common, i am sure, but they would still happen

let's say an eighteen-year-old girl gets pregnant, is afraid to tell her parents, and visits some underground clinic, or orders some day-after pill online... then she is caught... she would be charged with premeditated murder, with the possible consequence of life in prison or even execution... is this acceptable?

[rohirrim TR]

whoa... to TD and Lottese i'm really sorry that you experinced pain like that, as snowdog said only a major scumbag would do something like that, i'm sorry i didn't realize that this was a personal topic so i'll keep off this debate out of respect for that.

[Spock]

This is an emotional topic. For those with personal experience, perhaps you'd feel better PM'ing those mooters who indicate interest.
....There is no need to bare your feelings and open new wounds......
........just a suggestion.....

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

true in part... but, as i say, individuals differ... i had a friend who became pregnant while on the pill... the reason? she was taking antibiotics which can counteract the effects... this could be called "careless", but it is a lot to expect from a teen to know all the details

which is why i am for strong preventative measures... sex education very early in life... and not just the nuts and bolts stuff, but the emotional side... easily-available free contraception without parental consent for all

i'm curious how many pro-lifers have thought about the consequences of making abortion illegal?

if rowe v. wade was overturned it would go back to the states... let's say a state like texas made it illegal... abortions would be less common, i am sure, but they would still happen

let's say an eighteen-year-old girl gets pregnant, is afraid to tell her parents, and visits some underground clinic, or orders some day-after pill online... then she is caught... she would be charged with premeditated murder, with the possible consequence of life in prison or even execution... is this acceptable?

brownjenkins,

I so have some expertise here and 2 decades of experience as well as the material available from research (current) and historical (social and scientific).

I so expect users of the pill to "know all the details" because whether they are teen or adults I routinely counsel them on the "backup measures" they need to take if they miss pills, take antibiotics (ampicillin is notorious for this effect, by the way, while other antibiotics have not effect; the patient should routinely ask the prescribing physician or medical care provider "Will this affect my contraceptive technique?" by the way), or fail to initiate their contraception on time. If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to take responsibility to prevent pregnancy. I also counsel them on the failure rates for contraception and the need for condoms for protection from sexually transmitted diseases in addition to contraception. SO, I find your attitude of exculpation incomprehensible. The patient gets an information packet which has a booklet and/ or video to peruse for reinforcement and later questions that arise. I tell to keep them in their panty drawer for reference. That of course makes them responsible and capable of answering those questions if they so choose.

Nuts and bolts are important. MUCH more important is the concept of RESPONSIBILITY. It is not the physician's job to get the patient to properly use the contraceptive techniques; that is the patient's duty and responsibility. (Unless you want your MD in your house and car for compliance assurance. Wonder what that would cost?)

Your high ideals about the availability of contraception being the answer are patently untrue in practice. Which is where the rubber needs to meet the member to prevent STDs and contraceptive-users need to be informed and responsible consumers.

Historically the number of back-alley abortions were significantly inflated to accomplish the goal of legalization by supportive organizations. you can review the data from the Allen Guttmacher Institute in the years of the 1960's through 1973 for actual numbers of reported deaths. The inflation factor applied by the "pro-abortionists" were about 3 orders of magnitude. But don't take my word for it. Also check out the writings and speeches of Margaret Sanger for her true intentions about using contraception and abortion to control the breeding excesses of undesirable types which she openly defines as any other than WASPs. This is public record.

And your final paragraph really takes me back to those hyped up days and inflated figures with its worst case scenario as routine reason for (whatever).
If you actually examine abortion statistics you will find that most abortions are performed not on rape victims or adolescents or poor black or Hispanic women. The number one consumer of abortions in theis country is the white, college-educated female who ha access to all the preventative technologies and presumably the brains to be able to use them properly and consistently.
Go figure how that works with your idealistic availability and education program!

I've spent years in the process of educating people and have delivered individuals who were too irresponsible to seek an abortion for an "unwanted, unplanned" pregnancy because "I just didn't get around to it in time." And I have dealt with habitual users of abortion as birth control because the "couldn't remember" to utilize their pill or contraceptive technique. These folks are in for potential problems as clearly demonstrated by a French physician who conducted a 10 year follow-up of women with first trimester abortions and statistically reliably documented increased rates of pregnancy loss in subsequent desired pregnancies as well as increased preterm deliveries due to cervical competence problems.

Abortion is not benign though severe complications in hygenic and well staffed facilities are relatively rare. And the abortion pill RU-46 has resulted in three reported hemorrhagic deaths of users.

What do you think the economic impact of abortion restrictions would be on Planned ParentHood which is the NUMBER ONE provider of abortion services in America?

Your daughter (hypothetical) can't have an appendectomy or an ear piercing without your consent. She should be able to have an abortion?

I do not think that restrictions on abortion are the ultimate answer to the underlying problem. But I think reasonable restrictions regarding age and parental consent are viable. As well as waiting periods between counseling and procedure for purely elective procedures in general.

But there's always China's solution, isn't there?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

I do not think that restrictions on abortion are the ultimate answer to the underlying problem.

i agree, and am glad you would not want to take it to that extreme

on the rest, there are many variables present today that make it impossible to compare with the past... not the least of which is that abortion has been legal for so long... much like we learned with prohabition, it is a difficult thing to take something away that is a given for so long

as far as sex education and the availability of contraception go... i don't agree with the "take the responsibility or be damned" approach... i think it is our responsibility to do as much as we can for both the responsible and the irresponsible in our society

and i personally went through the "white, college-educated" route, and the methods of education and contraceptive availability leave a lot to be desired

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

I so have some expertise here and 2 decades of experience as well as the material available from research (current) and historical (social and scientific).

Always great to hear input from an ob/gyn in this thread! Thanks for sharing your info with us.

i'm curious how many pro-lifers have thought about the consequences of making abortion illegal?

Just out of curiosity, do you remember my position on this?

[Rían]

Here's what I was going to share a few days back - I finally have a few minutes.

Everyone brings up the rape issue, but I had never heard from people who had been raped and decided to carry the child to term. I read an article a few years back, talking about 5 or so women who had done just that. And the neat thing is that for them, it gave them back a sense of control to do that. Obviously, the rape was totally out of their control. Their decision to keep the child was like a defiance in the face of evil - a kind of acknowledgement that they were NOT totally helpless in the matter, and a choice to make something good out of something evil. It was really a powerful article, and I was glad to finally hear some first-hand accounts of women who had to deal with that question in real life. Some gave up their children to adoption, some kept them - but they were ALL extremely glad they did NOT abort the child. The only reservation that one had is that she had a boy, who happened to resemble her rapist as he grew older, and she recommended that if you have a boy, that you consider giving him up for adoption if you were considering keeping him.

[Spock]

I can't see keeping the memory of the crime alive by keeping the child. Whatever choice is made, the effects are lifelong.

[Lotesse]

I had a boyfriend a while back, he was a product of rape, and his mother hated him for it but never overtly. The knowledge of what he was destroyed him, turned him into a really friggin' tortured soul, so unbelieveably violent and filled with self-loathing. He used to freak out for no apparant reason on ME, trying to kill me all the time. His heart was meant to be gentle and was filled with potential for great creativity, but he was never able to access himself without the taint of where he'd come from; my GOD he was a mangled soul. He often wished he'd never been born, but he wasn't suicidal, he was homicidal. He was a product of rape, who his mother kept, and loved ,even though she also secretly hated him 'cause she couldn't help it. Hmmm. He wasn't abused or anything,mind you, but he sure turned INTO a violent, homicidal abuser.

[Andúril]

I found this debate an interesting read a couple years back.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

I can't see keeping the memory of the crime alive by keeping the child. Whatever choice is made, the effects are lifelong.

The memory of the crime will NEVER go away, no matter if the child is aborted or is allowed to live.

[Lotesse]

I don't feel the least bit of regret for having aborted. I am SO happy I did, actually.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I had a boyfriend a while back, he was a product of rape, and his mother hated him for it but never overtly. The knowledge of what he was destroyed him, turned him into a really friggin' tortured soul, so unbelieveably violent and filled with self-loathing. He used to freak out for no apparant reason on ME, trying to kill me all the time. His heart was meant to be gentle and was filled with potential for great creativity, but he was never able to access himself without the taint of where he'd come from; my GOD he was a mangled soul. He often wished he'd never been born, but he wasn't suicidal, he was homicidal. He was a product of rape, who his mother kept, and loved ,even though she also secretly hated him 'cause she couldn't help it. Hmmm. He wasn't abused or anything,mind you, but he sure turned INTO a violent, homicidal abuser.

I feel so sorry for this guy, but it isn't always like this. It all depends on how the mother is towards the child. In this case the mother hated him for it so he felt bad about himself, but if the mother learns to cope with it, and loves the child then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. There will always be a slight problem, but with the love of the Mother it can be made alot easier for the child.