The death sentence.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oh, that's ok - let's go do our toenails and be brainless

Oh, cool! I bought this very pretty black polish with teensy specks of blue. Want to borrow?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I dont think he was suggesting convicting people based on race at all. I think what was said was just pointing out that the percentage of minorities that are convicted of a capital crime is much higher then their representation in the population.

Ah, I see now.

So that leads us to ask well why is that? Now that may not be a question that needs to be answered only by the criminal justice system. The focus may be more social and cultural and national. But it opens up questions like is it because minorities tend to be more among the poor then non-minorities (and therefor cant afford equally qualified representation)?

OJ had a great lawyer. I believe he would qualify as a 'minority'.

This issue does need to be addressed socially and culturally. If there is a higher percentage of minorities among the poor, then the attitude toward education and self-pride needs to be addressed.

Is it because there is racism within our society?

I'm sure there is, even if that amount is small. If I were on a jury, the amount of melanin in someone's skin wouldn't make a difference on whether this person is guilty or not, or whether they got life in prison or the death penatly. And I think this is true for other people I know.

Is it because minorities are inharently more likely to commit crimes because they are lesser humans?

Ummmm... the amount of melanin in someone's skin has nothing to do with how much 'human' they are.

Yeah I know that last one is a red herring but quite a LOT of people silently believe that every time they see a news story about a black person going to jail for murder....

Why would you hang around people like that if they have confessed such idiotic beliefs to you? I don't know anyone who believes such a thing. But yes, there are groups of people who think the amount of melanin in someone's skin determines the ranking of humanity they belong to. They have an official organization. They're called the KKK. But I think everyone can be educated (did you ever see American History X?...pretty disturbing movie, but memorable, to say the very least).

...and anyway the point is that we need to investigate WHY this huge disparity occurs. Ideally (if i can use that word in this context) we should be killing criminals at the same rate that they occur racially in the population right? If not then we need to accept that either there are differences in race or that some races are more at a disadvantage then other races in this country ....

I agree, that is a good question that I'd like to find the answer to. I can not accept that there are genetic differences which predispose different 'races' to violence and crime ('race' really boils down to whether your genes tell you to make more melanin in your skin or whether your hair is thin or thick or straight or curly or coarse among other physical attributes).

I will tell you that I substituted in a school that was surrounded by a poor neighborhood. The vast majority of the 3 of the classes were minorities (approximately half hispanic and half African-American, mostly). The kids were outright rude, had no interest in learning, and had no respect for me (though I showed them quite a lot of respect and a willingness to help them when they didn't understand something in the lesson).

Then I substituted for another school. The neighborhood was still poor, but not quite as bad. The majority of the students were hispanic, with about 25% African-American and 10% white. I had no problems at all. All the kids were polite, sweet and respectful. Needless to say, they were all very eager to learn that day, and I was eager to teach them and help them.

I don't know what the difference between the classes was.

...and therefore we need to ask is it really just to have a death penalty where some people are more likely to be executed?

I don't think this is the question. You lost me on this last point. I was with you until now. I do not believe that there is a death penalty just to have it so that some people are more likely to be executed. If you look at the statistics, the majority of criminals on death row are 'white'. That's not just by a few... that's a very significant number. I do not think these number mean that 'race' plays a factor in whether or not someone will be given the death penalty. You have to look at capital cases brought to court. Then see who is convicted and who is not. If you can show me that there is a big disparity between convictions with regards to 'race' then I'd be more likely to lend an ear to your last statement. I'd be more likely to lean in that direction. But I've seen nothing showing me this.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
I just read in my Amnesty-magazine (sp?) that the U.S. is the country that gives (?) most death sentences to children (<18 years). I think that is very wrong.

Sorry if you've had a discussion about this earlier, I'm just too lazy to read all those pages..

I also have an issue with giving the death sentence to someone under 18 years of age. But I've also heard of some of the horrific, cold-hearted crimes that these 'so called' children commit. *shudder*

BTW... I don't believe they mean 'children' as in 10 years old. I believe they mean 'young adults' close to the age of 18. However, I still take issue with it. And I am against it.

But then what do you do with someone who participates in something like this...
(please be advised... this is not for underage eyes)
http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html
(I'm still shaking from reading it. )

Here's a link to information on Texas Death row. If you look to the right of the columns, you'll see how many years since their sentencing that they've been on death row. For people outside of Texas and the US who don't understand that the death penalty here, I think it is important to note that there is a huge gap between sentencing and execution in order to allow the convicted inmate and his/her lawyer an opportunity to find new evidence that might free someone that may actually be innocent of the crime. http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/TexasDR.htm

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ah, I see now.
OJ had a great lawyer. I believe he would qualify as a 'minority'.

And of course you do realize you are giving the classic exception that proves the rule right?

I'm sure there is, even if that amount is small. If I were on a jury, the amount of melanin in someone's skin wouldn't make a difference on whether this person is guilty or not, or whether they got life in prison or the death penatly. And I think this is true for other people I know.

then you live in an exceptional bubble of open mindedness where you are all powerful enough to resist even the subtlest most ingrained of psychological biases regarding self and other. We need to all move there to learn your secret. I don’t doubt that you would be completely and overtly fair in your decision making but for many many people racism is a subtle thing that’s below the surface. Not the classic red neck revolting racism we all know well. I went out with a girl for years who was white and loved me with all her heart and it wasn’t until years after we had been together that she admitted that she thought most black guys were mean and dangerous because that’s what she learned from watching tv and going to school with black guys who were “thuggy�. And she honestly didn’t see the inconsistency in this feeling. She just thought that’s how it is. She just felt I was “unusual� for my race. When you have these kind of deeply ingrained conceptions about race you can be sure they effect your decision making on some level. Now PLEASE don’t take from this that im saying YOU are racist Ruinal. Im just using this discussion to make a point. And if you think Im saying yer racist I may have to pop a cap in yo ass.

Why would you hang around people like that if they have confessed such idiotic beliefs to you? I don't know anyone who believes such a thing. But yes, there are groups of people who think the amount of melanin in someone's skin determines the ranking of humanity they belong to. They have an official organization. They're called the KKK.

No Im not talking about the disgustingly racist people like the Klan Im talking about normal people hun. People who have black friends. People who work with, go to school with, even live among blacks. Im talking about people I described in the paragraph above. Not vicious racists. And they don’t confess these beliefs that’s the point. They just have them. Deep down.

I don't think this is the question. You lost me on this last point. I was with you until now. I do not believe that there is a death penalty just to have it so that some people are more likely to be executed.

uh no that’s not what I was saying. I simply asked is it just to have a death penalty where the reality is that minorities (and the poor since you mentioned that) are vastly over represented among those convicted. Where did you get I was saying the death penalty exists to kill more blacks?

If you look at the statistics, the majority of criminals on death row are 'white'. That's not just by a few... that's a very significant number. I do not think these number mean that 'race' plays a factor in whether or not someone will be given the death penalty.

um where do you get that from? Jersey just showed us a chart in this same thread that states that 45% of death row inmates are white and 42% are black. Very significant number? 3? And I mean its been an old argument among anti-death penalty folks that the percentage of minorities on death row is way higher then its representation in the population. As I said previously, if everything was “ideal� we would see 11% of those on death row being black not 42%. So… that’s why I asked if its JUST to have a death penalty that effects certain groups more then others. Seems like a reasonable question to me.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Oh, cool! I bought this very pretty black polish with teensy specks of blue. Want to borrow?

Ohhhh, kewl! Send it on over! This topic is too complex for my fluffy female brain - I need a break!

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Considering the US is one of the biggest countries in the world and one of the few countries in which minors are sentenced to death, that isn't strange.

It may not be strange but it's wrong, IMO. Actually disguisting is a better word.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Yeah I know that last one is a red herring but quite a LOT of people silently believe that every time they see a news story about a black person going to jail for murder and anyway the point is that we need to investigate WHY this huge disparity occurs.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant.

The inevitable conclusion (if there is racism in society, and if we have a justice system which hands out the death penalty) is that we will end up killing minorities unfairly. (Not intentionally, Ruinel, but unfairly nonetheless.)

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
granted, if you look at any individual criminal you could say, as jonathan does, that you can never be sure which of those ten will commit a crime...

Interesting. Mostly, I also take the view that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but for me there are a few overriding moral imperatives.

There are three of them at work here:
1) You're definitely killing to maybe prevent killing;
2) It's society that is doing the killing, for which we have responsibility;
3) You're punishing people for things they haven't done yet.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
yes... i am willing to sacrifice a few innocent people if it means that many more innocent lives will be saved as a result... until we come up with a better system as i layed out above

Im sorry I just cant get past this thinking. It makes my blood grow cold. Not to be flip but its really along the same lines of Inca priests thinking well if we kill a few innocent virgins every year in a bloody formal ceremony we will have good luck and good crops and good health and less deaths among the citizenry. What you really should be saying is not that well the death penalty is better then nothing and shrugging and walking away but that the death penalty is an unjust way of dealing with people and you should be trumpeting loudly your ideas about true life sentences and such. At least stress that you are choosing the lessor of two great evils because these are currently your only options. Perhaps you have already and ignore this if you have but from the feeling behind your posts I didnt get this impression.

And I guess my one question to you is would you be as adamant about supporting killing some innocents to save some others if one of the innocents to be killed was your child? Would you accept that the odds just happened to go very much against you but you accept your duty in saving more people by sacrificing your child? Or would you do everything in your power to keep this from happening?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Ohhhh, kewl! Send it on over! This topic is too complex for my fluffy female brain - I need a break!

Let's braid our hair! I'll do you first!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
...then you live in an exceptional bubble of open mindedness where you are all powerful enough to resist even the subtlest most ingrained of psychological biases regarding self and other. We need to all move there to learn your secret. I don’t doubt that you would be completely and overtly fair in your decision making but for many many people racism is a subtle thing that’s below the surface.

I'm assuming you're saying you are black? Ok... then if I was accused of ...say... participating in lynching a black man (being white) would you look me over and make assumptions? Would you assume that since I was white that this is quite probable? From what you are saying, you would, though I couldn't do such a thing to another. I'm sure I'd be on death row awaiting my first appeal because you'd have all the jurors convinced I was some trailer trash hick from the South that says the 'n' word like it was a 'how-do-you-do'.

phththt

Not the classic red neck revolting racism we all know well. I went out with a girl for years who was white and loved me with all her heart and it wasn’t until years after we had been together that she admitted that she thought most black guys were mean and dangerous because that’s what she learned from watching tv and going to school with black guys who were “thuggy�. And she honestly didn’t see the inconsistency in this feeling. She just thought that’s how it is. She just felt I was “unusual� for my race. When you have these kind of deeply ingrained conceptions about race you can be sure they effect your decision making on some level.

Fear of the other is a strong instinct in humans. I admit that. I think people who are brought up to have small, sheltered lives tend to have a bigger fear than others. I find your story odd that even though she had this idea of how black guys are, she still went out with you. You must be one hot babe and a smooth talker! Just curious but, how did you feel when she said this to you? I think I would have felt really crappy, myself.

Now PLEASE don’t take from this that im saying YOU are racist Ruinal. Im just using this discussion to make a point. And if you think Im saying yer racist I may have to pop a cap in yo ass.

I didn't think you were saying I was racist. Its funny, though, there's a lot of talk of how whites are racist against blacks, but not the other way around, not to mention other 'races' as well.

A long time ago (translation: "back in the day"), I went to my boss' retirement party at her house. I got to her house and started mingling around... after a while, I noticed that I was the only white person there. Funny that I didn't notice it right away, though, I don't know why. Anyway... it was funny that some people there didn't want to talk to me, even though they didn't know me. I was one of two people from the place I worked at that showed up. The other person was black, she had no problem mingling with the other people there (who were relatives of my boss).

Then I've also mentioned about the woman who shouted out to me in a store how she hated me because I was white.

No Im not talking about the disgustingly racist people like the Klan Im talking about normal people hun. People who have black friends. People who work with, go to school with, even live among blacks. Im talking about people I described in the paragraph above. Not vicious racists. And they don’t confess these beliefs that’s the point. They just have them. Deep down.

ok

uh no that’s not what I was saying. I simply asked is it just to have a death penalty where the reality is that minorities (and the poor since you mentioned that) are vastly over represented among those convicted. Where did you get I was saying the death penalty exists to kill more blacks?

I didn't say 'blacks' I said minorities. But I suppose we could say blacks, too. So, why are there more minorities in prisons than whites? Is it that there are truely two justice systems where a white criminal is set free for the same crime that a minority is sentenced to prison for? I find that a little hard to swallow, personally. And I don't think that someone who is a minority is more likely to commit a crime because of their 'race'. I'm saying that it could be environment more than anything else.

um where do you get that from? Jersey just showed us a chart in this same thread that states that 45% of death row inmates are white and 42% are black. Very significant number? 3? And I mean its been an old argument among anti-death penalty folks that the percentage of minorities on death row is way higher then its representation in the population. As I said previously, if everything was “ideal� we would see 11% of those on death row being black not 42%. So… that’s why I asked if its JUST to have a death penalty that effects certain groups more then others. Seems like a reasonable question to me.

Sorry, I must have scrolled to the wrong chart. My apologies.

I suppose, again, we have to address that question. Why is that population higher?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Thank you, that's exactly what I meant.

The inevitable conclusion (if there is racism in society, and if we have a justice system which hands out the death penalty) is that we will end up killing minorities unfairly. (Not intentionally, Ruinel, but unfairly nonetheless.)

Then perhaps we should just go with Anarchy then. Since justice systems are inherently biased toward some populations.

[The Gaffer]

Well, that would be one solution.

Or else you could have a penalty which, if proven to be mistaken, could be reversed at a later date...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Well, that would be one solution.

Or else you could have a penalty which, if proven to be mistaken, could be reversed at a later date...

Ummmm... that's what the system allows for. Did you look at the time that inmates spend waiting for their sentence to be carried out? Does 15 to 30 years seem enough time to reverse a decision if someone is actually innocent? Do you know how many appeals someone convicted of a capital offense gets?

[EDIT: Where's your tater eating frog?]

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'm assuming you're saying you are black? Ok... then if I was accused of ...say... participating in lynching a black man (being white) would you look me over and make assumptions? Would you assume that since I was white that this is quite probable? From what you are saying, you would, though I couldn't do such a thing to another. I'm sure I'd be on death row awaiting my first appeal because you'd have all the jurors convinced I was some trailer trash hick from the South that says the 'n' word like it was a 'how-do-you-do'.

uh… *squinting * if you are trying to ask if stereotypes work both ways then the answer is yes. Perhaps I didn’t mention that even though im not white I still have stereotypes about blacks myself. I make it an effert to consciously and overtly block out these stereotypes as much as possible and I think Im able to pretty well but you can be damn sure they still exist in me and Im sure on some level they motivate my view point on people and society. The first step in honestly and successfully confronting our inner biases (which are generally programmed into us by society as we grow up) is to admit that they exist. And EVERYONE has them. No one is immune.

I find your story odd that even though she had this idea of how black guys are, she still went out with you. You must be one hot babe and a smooth talker! Just curious but, how did you feel when she said this to you? I think I would have felt really crappy, myself.

nah I didn’t feel crappy I knew her very very well by that point and I realized she was capable of holding contrary points of view. She was simply oblivious. Totally naive that this was a bizarre way of thinking. To her it made perfect sense. To her it was not so much about race as it was about the cartoon images she perceived as reality. And she didn’t really look down on blacks she just had this stereotypical image about them. But at the same time she would talk about how hot Tu pac was or something. And I find this rather typical among a lot of people really. In a way it can be thought of as a good thing. Her father was overtly racist so she overcame that environment (I think her stereotyping came mostly from the media and pop culture rather then her upbringing). And she is obviously openly accepting of non-whites in personal relationships so I see it as a step in the right direction. In the end she wound up in a long term relationship with a black man and her father wound up liking me more then any other of her old boyfriends (probably because the one other long term boyfriend she had was white and he wound up raping her and robbing their house for drug money. So much for stereotypes). Oh and I might add that now shes engaged to a Korean guy.

I didn't think you were saying I was racist. Its funny, though, there's a lot of talk of how whites are racist against blacks, but not the other way around, not to mention other 'races' as well.

Then let it be known from henceforth that a black person has said that BLACKS CAN BE RACIST TOWARD WHITES. That was easy. Oh and should I mention Asians can be racist toward non-asians? Hispanics can be racist toward non-Hispanics? French Canadians can be racist toward non-french… (well actually toward everybody ). Yukama Indians can be racist toward non-Yukama Indians? Etc… See where Im going with this?

So, why are there more [based on % representation] minorities in prisons than whites?

That, my dear, is the question to investigate. And by acknowledging ok there is an unfairness somewhere in the system somehow but we aren’t sure why then leads us to the point of well can we have something like the death penalty in a world we know in which it unfairly effects certain groups? Should we at least suspend it until we have answers to some of these questions about differences? And I think that’s the question from which this whole discussion diverged. So what do you think?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Let's braid our hair! I'll do you first!

Oh, totally!



(you spammer, you! )

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
[EDIT: Where's your tater eating frog?]

He hopped off after some juicy turnips. Didn't you notice my gurning gaffer in the interim?? * hurt look *

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You must be one hot babe and a smooth talker!

Yup, our Rexy is pretty smooth!

Its funny, though, there's a lot of talk of how whites are racist against blacks, but not the other way around, not to mention other 'races' as well.

No kidding! Thanks for bringing up a very good, altho VERY non-pc, point. And it's true (and wrong) with all races, as you (and later IRex) say.

A long time ago (translation: "back in the day"), I went to my boss' retirement party at her house. I got to her house and started mingling around... after a while, I noticed that I was the only white person there. Funny that I didn't notice it right away, though, I don't know why. Anyway... it was funny that some people there didn't want to talk to me, even though they didn't know me. I was one of two people from the place I worked at that showed up. The other person was black, she had no problem mingling with the other people there (who were relatives of my boss).

Interesting story, and sad that people that you knew didn't choose to talk to you .

I've found that I notice - hmm, not sure what to call it - I guess the "demeanor" of a person more than their race - IOW, I'm much more comfortable with a person of another race that has similar interests and background and demeanor, than a person of my race but who has a different demeanor, like Eminem.

Then I've also mentioned about the woman who shouted out to me in a store how she hated me because I was white.

Poor you ... and poor lady, to be so hateful.

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
He hopped off after some juicy turnips. Didn't you notice my gurning gaffer in the interim?? * hurt look *

[chant] Bring back the frog and tater! Bring back the frog and tater! [/chant]

Or was it a toad?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oh, totally!



(you spammer, you! )

*grabs a bit of Rian's hair and starts braiding* So... Johnny Depp... totally hot, eh?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I've found that I notice - hmm, not sure what to call it - I guess the "demeanor" of a person more than their race - IOW, I'm much more comfortable with a person of another race that has similar interests and background and demeanor, than a person of my race but who has a different demeanor, like Eminem.

I can't stand Eminem.

Poor you ... and poor lady, to be so hateful.

Yeah, I didn't say anything to her at the time.. I just walked away. I felt pretty sorry for her to have made such a spectacle of herself.