12-04-2005, 02:23 PM | #241 | |
Elven Warrior
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More to the point, just look up the number of LGBT associations at top universities or top scientific professions and you will see that LGBT people are always represented |
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12-04-2005, 02:43 PM | #242 | |
Elven Warrior
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In the meanwhile I want to point out a few things: 1. Why are you so shocked by sexually suggestive behavior? 2. Are you sure this alleged sexual suggestive behavior on LGBT people's part is not your own misinterpretation? 3. There is likely endogenous selection in your sampling as you recognize LGBT people as such only when they manifest their orientation and not in the millions other occasions in which you meet them but don't recognize them 4. homosexual orientation is stigmatized and therefore a prime way in which homosexual people resist the stigmatization is by making their own sexual orientation visible to others I am not even going to read the rest. Giving same-sex couples the opportunity to marry is the right thing to do and it is what should be done. |
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12-04-2005, 03:14 PM | #243 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Here are a few thoughts to consider: Let's pretend liberals are more likely to get divorced than conservatives. Let's also pretend liberal gays are more likely to "come out of the closet" whereas conservative gays may just keep their homosexuality to themselves. This would mean most same-sex marriages are between liberal gays. They (like every other marriage between liberals) statistically have a risk of ending in a divorce. If there was a study of how often gays divorce and new laws were written based on this study, these laws would NOT take into consideration the fact that you being liberal matters a lot. The law-makers would make the WRONG assumption that it all comes down to whether you prefer the same sex or not. They wouldn't take into account other important factors (in this imaginary case, the political views of the married couples) Lief, when you suggest studies should be made so we can make new laws modified for homosexuals, you also suggest we incorporate discriminating speculations based on biased gatherings of data.
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12-04-2005, 04:52 PM | #244 | |
Elf Lord
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My message to gay Americans: if this sort of stuff really frightens you, come and live somewhere where you are not discriminated against so publicy and unashamedly. |
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12-04-2005, 05:23 PM | #245 | |||
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There are, of course, challenges when constructing studies in deciding who is to make them. Also, what factors are taken into consideration in the studies is another issue. Obviously, I am in favor of as many factors as possible being taken into consideration. I am not convinced that it is impossible to sort between culture and biology. Once again, comparative studies to places which have different cultures, and analyzing nations where homosexual marriages are allowed, should be made. This kind of data, in some places, would help to cut away issues like the sharp liberal vs. conservative differences we have in the US. As regards the roles of men and women in the US, Insidious Rex, I do suspect that indeed, sometimes it would be wise to take biology into account and discriminate between men and women. As regards Asians, I am very curious to see what evidence you have that they are biologically superior to us. Quote:
As regards smoking, I meant that there is strong debate still as to whether or not it should be legal, because it is proven that smoking has a negative effect on the health of nonsmokers. Quote:
So I don't intend to argue with your 1000 examples. With some of them I might argue, because there is significant evidence that these are cultural issues rather than biological. Also, for some biological differences, while these differences exist and are worth noting, they aren't of a sort that really require a law being made about them. In other more extreme cases, it sometimes would be appropriate to create laws. Relationships like marriage automatically have laws surrounding them. It's not a matter of whether or not we're going to make a law . . . it's a matter of what kind of law we're going to make. Hence, taking into the biological factor would make sense in this context. It's quite possible, that said, that our society might be better off in some ways if there were a few more discriminatory laws between men and women, in certain areas where biological differences have an extreme effect.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-04-2005 at 07:00 PM. |
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12-04-2005, 05:23 PM | #246 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-04-2005, 06:49 PM | #247 | |
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I've got a BS, and MS, and an MD - that's 15 years of post HS. Then add in the Board Certification and 17 years of CME........ I'm, like totally correct on everything with a mere 32 years of education! Somehow, I don't think you'll keep that argument ! HANG IN THERE LIEF!
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12-04-2005, 06:59 PM | #248 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 07:00 PM | #249 | |
Elven Warrior
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Given that I am fair, I am happy to recognize that I had not understood that Lief meant in his earlier post what he clarified that he meant in his subsequent post. Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 12-04-2005 at 07:27 PM. |
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12-04-2005, 07:02 PM | #250 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 07:04 PM | #251 | |
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 12-04-2005 at 07:13 PM. |
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12-04-2005, 07:18 PM | #252 | |
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There might or might not be different propensity to form marriage-based relationships within the LGBT group, but we will never know unless LGBT people are allowed to marry their partners. And even if it turned out that fewer LGBT people form marriage-based ralationships than heterosexual people. I don't see why all LGBT people should be deprived of that right |
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12-04-2005, 07:21 PM | #253 | |||
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Lief's opinion is not less valid just because he doesn't have a degree (?).
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edited to add: You know, since men and women's brains are different, people should only be allowed to marry their same gender. Procreation will have to occur outside of marriage folks, sorry. Yes, men and women are different. Every single person in the world is different from every one else. Individuality has nothing to do with marriage.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 12-04-2005 at 07:25 PM. |
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12-04-2005, 07:23 PM | #254 | |
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12-04-2005, 07:29 PM | #255 | |
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12-04-2005, 07:31 PM | #256 | |
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12-04-2005, 07:53 PM | #257 | ||
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Thus, because of impatience to get these rights for homosexuals (rights that may be the WRONG RIGHTS for that kind of relationship), you may be playing a hand in damaging their future. The better way would be to examine closely the relationships, and their differences and similarities to heterosexual ones, and thus right from the start have laws that are the most practical for taking into account the different needs and expectations that might exist in the different kinds of relationships. Homosexuals have been denied marriage rights for centuries. It would be very sad for them if just when there was more openness to their receiving rights, they made the mistake of choosing for themselves, through hastiness, laws that do not fit with the biological differences in the couples' make-up, and thus do not work effectively for many. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 08:13 PM | #258 | |
Elf Lord
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Thus, since diversity in many ways is strength, I completely do not understand you.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 09:03 PM | #259 | |
Elven Warrior
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1. with this line of reasoning no right should be given to anyone because you can always think that in the future you might find out something that make any right unsuitable to someone. It would be more productive to think whether there is any reasonable doubt based on the evidence that we have that marriage would be unsuitable for same-sex couples. I say we have no reasonable evidence for such doubt and I don't that there would ever be. 2. What difference could there be between same-sex couples and different-sex couples so that marriage (which is voluntarily entered and voluntarily terminated) is unsuitable for them? 3. The institution of marriage is constantly redefined. There are right now more than 1000 rights and obbligations just at federal level (you then have to add state provisions) and they keep on changing. Already today different provisions apply to different marriages according to the juridistion and according to the financial agreements and status of the spouses (and probably many other factors that I don't know) 4. While we wait for the perfect study, people fall sick and their partners are not admitted to the hospital; their partners fall sick and their health insurance does not cover them because they are unmarried' people die and their partners get nothig because their paperwork for the inheritance is much more onerous; people die and children are taken away from the other partner because only one person in an unmarried couple can adopt. And even those who live see their relationship dimished. |
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12-04-2005, 09:33 PM | #260 |
Word Santa Claus
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Lief - when people marry, we don't have a questionnaire that asks if they're similar or different; we trust them to make the decision of who is best for them to marry (once they're legally competent). The state has no business telling two men or two women "you're too similar to each other, we can't have you marrying," any more than it could tell two science majors that. If you feel that the strongest marriages are between two people with dissimilar brains, marry someone whose brain differs from yours. That doesn't mean other people should have to. My parents are bloody similar, and last I checked their marriage worked just fine. My cousins in California are fairly different, and their attempted marriage is doing fine and has been as long as I've known them. I say attempted because the California Supreme Court held the marriage license San Fransisco granted them was invalid because they're two women. Who you marry is a personal choice. The greatest limitation that is contained in the state's interest is that it be between two legally competent persons. Their genders, ability to have children, intelligence, or anything else should have nothing to do with it.
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