08-02-2004, 10:36 PM | #241 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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08-02-2004, 10:47 PM | #242 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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08-02-2004, 10:58 PM | #243 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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It's not lying, just "selective inattention". I could believe the reports about the Iraqis getting aluminum tubing used for refining Uranium, or I could choose to believe the Nuclear Regulation Commission experts that said the tubing was too poor a quality for such use.
So, last year after the war was declared over, the hawks were trying to decide whether to invade Syria or Iran next. How's that plan working out, anyway? Funny how Clinton got broiled by the GOP for a helicopter going down in Somalia (Bush Sr's parting gift), but now they feel thousands of dead and wounded are acceptable losses for a mistake of judgement and planning and bad intelligence. Do you know why the rebuilding of Japan and Germany went so smooth? We fire bombed every significant sized city and disarmed every individual. If we are going to wage war we should be sure that they enemy has lost the will and ability to fight before we call it a day. Vietnam was the same "hearts and minds", unilateral, confused motivation type of bull**** war as this Iraq mess. Johnson and W. display the same muddled and decisive approach to war. Must be something about Texas. Check out Robert McNamara's "Fog of War". Interesting for all viewers regardless of political orientation.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
08-02-2004, 11:05 PM | #244 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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08-02-2004, 11:18 PM | #245 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I don't believe that iraq is a "mistake of judgement". There were always many reasons for going into iraq. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-02-2004, 11:19 PM | #246 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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If you are trying to convert me into a Bush supporter it won't happen , I have several problems with his beliefs and ideas that stretch far beyond the war in Iraq, My main problem with him would be his ban on gay marriages and allowing big companies to disregard environmental policies. |
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08-02-2004, 11:50 PM | #247 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Oh and I would never try making you a Bush supporter - that would be a losing battle.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-02-2004 at 11:51 PM. |
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08-03-2004, 12:08 AM | #248 | |||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Ddi you notice they thought more emphasis should be placed of domestic security (ie defensive measures) which you previously displaraged over a primarily overt offensive posture? Using conventional war to some global terrorism is like using water to put out a chemical fire. The Chinese are currently researching computer attacks as a way to wage an asuymmetric war against the US. Time to put some tarriffs on those cheap good to help pay for port security. Quote:
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Vietnam was much worse, but there are simlilarities. It was a primarily unilateral action on the part of the US (pleas don't bother reminding me about the contributions of the 52nd state or the few hundred Italians). I mean the decisionmaking process, the behind the scenes negotiations and "inducements" just to get a few reluctant participants. The strategy failed to understand the negative effects of foreign occupation, the resentment of accumulated civilian casualties, the failure to negate insurgence. The belief that installing a western style government will bring peace and happiness to the poor misguided natives. It may just turn out that the majority do what a theocratic Shiite controlled state. It is a very likely long term outcome once our troops are out. Of course, we will be "defending our interests" in Iraq for some time to come, regardless of elections or Iragi security forces. The decision to "go" based on unconfirmed intelligence. Of course they are different in many ways but "NOTHING like" is not accurate.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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08-03-2004, 12:21 AM | #249 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I don't have time to read all this because I'm going to the reopening of the Statue of Liberty - but I will respond to this...
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Damn if you think that was a flame - then you and the others must have been putting me through blazing inferno before.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-03-2004, 12:38 AM | #250 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Okay it's bit dry but the point is when you talk about the person instead of the topic it just drags it into the mud. I know we have had some great discussions in the past but lately it seems like a bad marriage, wher the least little disagreement is an occasion to dredge up every hard feeling from the past. I can easily provoke this scenario without ever going on line, so why would I want to come here for that. It is possible to discuss the merits and shortcomings of a position without trying to analyze what personal defect may have brought it on. I only pointed it out because I don't want to go down that road again. Give Lady Liberty a big wet one for me.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 08-03-2004 at 12:39 AM. |
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08-03-2004, 11:35 AM | #251 |
Rohirrim Warrior
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Since this is the presidential election thread, I'll share with you who I finally decided to vote for. I'm going to go with Michael Badnarik. Heres the link to his website http://www.badnarik.org/ There you can read his background info, his stance on issues blah blah blah
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08-03-2004, 01:37 PM | #252 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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National Security This issue makes minarchists out of a lot of would-be anarchists. One view is that in a libertarian society everyone would be heavily armed, making invasion or usurpation by a domestic tyrant excessively risky. This is what the Founding Fathers clearly intended for the U.S. (the Constitution made no provision for a standing army, entrusting defense primarily to a militia consisting of the entirety of the armed citizenry). It works today in Switzerland (also furnishing one of the strongest anti-gun-control arguments). The key elements in libertarian-anarchist defense against an invader would be: a widespread ideology (libertarianism) that encourages resistance; ready availability of deadly weapons; and no structures of government that an invader can take over and use to rule indirectly. Think about the Afghans, the Viet Cong, the Minutemen -- would you want to invade a country full of dedicated, heavily armed libertarians? :-) Minarchist libertarians are less radical, observe that U.S. territory could certainly be protected effectively with a military costing less than half of the bloated U.S. military budget. |
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08-03-2004, 02:59 PM | #253 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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08-03-2004, 03:41 PM | #254 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Did anyone else besides me hear about how homosexual advocates were not allowed to bring signs into the Democratic convention because of "security reasons"? Do we have some hypocrisy going on here? I doubt that homosexual issues play well in some of those swing states.
From a gay website: here "Gay delegates also complained about the ban on bringing signs into the Fleet Center, the convention site, allegedly for "security" reasons. This prevented gay delegates from brandishing placards supporting same-sex marriage, since none of the signs provided inside the convention by the Kerry campaign took that position." I did a Google search on "homosexual signs democratic convention".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-03-2004 at 03:44 PM. |
08-03-2004, 04:35 PM | #255 |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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I heard that, and that the Vietman veterans and Vietnamese immigrants that were protesting.. some 200 strong, got no coverage while kerry had 14 of "his band of brothers" on stage with him. The Swiftboat vets have alot to say about that, and also the old picture Kerry is using in his ads.
Seriously, the Dems sold out the Greens, so Nader is the right choice for you, otherwise you're just going to vote for another rich corporate guy .
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08-03-2004, 05:40 PM | #256 |
Long lost mooter
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To answer Ragnarok's question: Yes, I absolutely think he should be allowed. I also think Nader should be allowed, assuming he's on the ballot in enough states. The problem is that the Dem and Rep parties in effect "own" the debates, in that they have an agreement that neither of them will debate with any other candidate but each other.
This all came about because of Ross Perot being such a strong contender way back when. They had to do something to shut out any other strong third party candidate that might come along in the future. It's really too bad, because having those third parties really forces the issues out in a way that just having the two does not. It would also bring in fresh perspectives, and of course allow voters to see more clearly the differences among the slate of candidates they have to choose from. The good news is that with the Internet and a wide range of cable TV channels, third party candidates can debate with each other and have national exposure despite being shut out of the "official" debate. |
08-03-2004, 06:35 PM | #257 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I got a letter from Robert Redford today! It's addressed to ME! personally, and the return address just says "ROBERT REDFORD" in large red letters! I can't wait to show my mom (who is always sneaking pictures of President Bush and his wife in with the stuff she gives me, just to bug me...and for fun )
The front of my letter say's "Liz M., I want you to know what's at stake in the White House attacks on our environment." There's a petition to sign that says... "I am apalled that the Bush Administration is escalating it's attacks on our environment. Americans are opposed to letting corporations increase air and water pollution, cut down our wild forests, or destroy our public lands. I strongly support enforcement of our environmental laws and preservation of our natural heritage. I call on you to defend thirty years of bipartisan, environmental progress and urge the Administration to reverse it's destructive and shortsighted policies." I'll sign it, and send some money to this NRDC.( Natural Resources Defense Council) I really do wonder why Bush has gone this route with the environment? So unpopular, and bad....Anyway....the only bummer is there is no picture of Robert Redford!
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08-03-2004, 07:40 PM | #258 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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08-03-2004, 07:53 PM | #259 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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08-03-2004, 09:53 PM | #260 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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