08-24-2004, 09:00 AM | #241 | |
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08-24-2004, 09:09 AM | #242 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-24-2004, 11:55 AM | #243 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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"spirit" is defined as "the animating principal of life, especially humans." I don't believe anything survives death but good old chemical energy... you know ......our biomass breaks down into usable elements for other things to draw upon. We are "recyclable" not "magical", for IMO, a survivable soul seems like "magic" to me. (and by magic I mean something unproveable by scientific methods) The spiritual realm is not real to me. There ARE things we don't understand, like dark energy, or some of the sensory abilities of other species of animal life that exist now, or have existed in the past. Experiences where people brush up against such phenomenon might make us inclined to believe these as yet *unexplanables* (man, I'm sounding like a real dork here! )are evidence of a "spiritual realm", but I don't. Are the "humans are NOT merely animals" folks saying that humans are the only creatures to have these "souls" which I assume are purposefully designed by a singular supernatural god? And all other creatures do not posess souls, therefore humans are above them, and may use the souless creatures as we see fit? That's the jist I'm getting....
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08-24-2004, 01:08 PM | #244 | |
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nice artwork btw! i think i checked out that link before, but browsed it pretty quick
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08-25-2004, 03:46 AM | #245 | ||
Elf Lord
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Prophesies of the coming Messiah were fulfilled in Jesus, and a good many of them there were too that were fulfilled. Indeed, that makes a very substantial block of evidence in support of his being who he said he was, and hence, a strong argument in favor of the spiritual realm existing, and hence, a strong argument in favor of the soul existing, which is extremely important to this discussion. Quote:
I know, however, that brownjenkins tends to think about issues and make the best intellectual conclusion he can. Therefore I open to him this evidence of the existence of the spiritual realm, straight from the old mythology book . It is a powerful argument. I know I've been talking somewhat humorously, but I am very serious about this. I hope it'll be given the attention and thought it deserves. ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 03:50 AM | #246 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 08:08 AM | #247 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Hi Leif! I won't bother debating about stuff from the bible, because I view it (the bible) as merely one of several books written by ancients to explain stuff they didn't understand. The prophesies are just quaint stories to me. The fact that a man with a huge christian church has written an engaging book propping up the bible doesn't mean that much to me. My common sense does. Nice book though!
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08-25-2004, 09:22 AM | #248 | |
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many of the stories seen in the bible can be traced to more ancient sources... gilgamesh is just one of many in which you can see some of the foundations for the 'great flood' story... and the bible, like many religious books that came before and after it, is more a distillation of common myth than a book of history we have no way of knowing if jesus even existed... and if he did, what he did and did not do... it's possible that the whole thing is just a story... it's also possible that he was a real person and people embelished the story of his life to strengthen his following... we see this very thing today... just check out the presidential election, where, even now, separating truth from fiction can be tricky at best do we assume that godlike beings once lived at the top of mount olympus just because so many greeks wrote about them? can we claim that a monster inhabited loch ness just because so many have claimed to have seen it, and even taken photos proof, as far as science is concerned, is reproduceable... come up with an experiment that can be reproduced at any time that displays a human soul, or implies its presence, and you may have something mythological writings are not evidence in any way, shape or form
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08-25-2004, 01:07 PM | #249 | |||||||
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I apologize if I sound condescending or like a jerk in this post through style of writing and what I say. I'm simply telling what I've experienced and what I need to hear before going forward. I've encountered a lot of hard hearted pat answers in the past that ignore the issues and refuse to pay attention to them. Everyone assumes Christianity is wrong and refuses to be attentive to the evidence as a consequence. It's a bad attitude :P .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-25-2004 at 01:12 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 01:16 PM | #250 | ||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-25-2004 at 01:17 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 01:38 PM | #251 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-25-2004 at 01:40 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 01:41 PM | #252 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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my views are seen as pretty radical by many too... how about this? when you have the time... be it soon or a few months from now... post just one specific instance of this evidence you speak of and i will try to address directly without the 'big picture' questions (i don't have the time to respond to twenty... so i'd prefer it kept simple too ) however, i will bring the scientific method into play... i.e. if you had a photo of jesus standing next to lazarus outside his tomb, it does not necessarily prove that jesus raised him from the dead and on the Quote:
i direct your attention again to the present day... choose any volatile subject from politics, to religion, to even specific world events, and you get a host of conflicting reports from various 'experts'... and in this day and age we have television and world travel... it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to verify or discredit the things which the bible speak of by anyone living back in 100 BC i still suggest you read the campbell book at some point too, you may not agree with it... but it gives a very interesting perspective on the whole idea of human beliefs and practices throughout recorded history
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08-25-2004, 01:48 PM | #253 | |
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i rule nothing out, but if there is no physical evidence for a theory, like the existance of souls, or my superior race... then it is little more than speculation... which is all fine and well, but not evidence
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-25-2004, 01:56 PM | #254 | |
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Personally, I don't think there is any scientific PROOF for Christianity (or atheism or agnosticism or any other worldview belief) (or a lot of other things that we believe, for that matter) - there is evidence and indicators, and one must do the best with what one has. And there is a LOT to go on, but not the type of stuff that fits in labs. But a lab can't prove that your wife loves you, either. Does that mean that you deny that she loves you? No, I think you go on the evidence and the indicators that you have, and come to a reasonable conclusion that she loves you. Just like I go on the evidence and the indicators that I see and come to a reasonable conclusion that Christianity is true. And I give the non-Christians the benefit of the doubt and say that altho I think they're wrong, I think that they have come to THEIR worldview beliefs through looking at evidence and indicators (and one other thing, but I won't say what it is).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-25-2004, 02:03 PM | #255 | |||||
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I think for now we can wear out for a while the one we're currently talking about. Quote:
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In modern politics, religious discussions, elections, specific world events, etc. we don't have people trying to change peoples' minds about the events they or their family members saw or experienced. We have people saying the Palestinians' mistreatment didn't happen to us here in America, but we don't have people telling Palestinian families that their houses that they saw bulldozed weren't actually bulldozed. I further ask you this: What motive did the disciples have for preaching these things in the first place, if they weren't true? The disciples faced opposition from the religious structure and from major parts of the community around them. Many of the early Christian Jews were punished severely for their beliefs. So if they were embellishing and making things up, why were they willing to endure all of this for their accounts if they'd been fabricating? I suppose that'll be enough arguments to get along with for now . Looking forward to your response! Quote:
Anyway, thanks for the recommendation.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 02:05 PM | #256 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 03:02 PM | #257 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Anyway, I think I might be done here, so I'll just sum up my position again for anyone that's interested:
Personally, I think that humans, altho their bodies are made the same way as animals, also have something entirely different, and that is what is usually called a soul. Call it what you will, but I see that humans (or at the least, me, because I"m the only one that I have first-hand experience on!) have an ability to choose BETWEEN instinct and other options, usually those that our sense of morality tell me are right even if my instinct doesn't like them. In addition, I see something in humans that just soars above the physical, and for which I don't see any physical explanation, and that's things like recognizing beauty and courage and honor and love as distinct things apart from whatever benefit they may give me. Because of these observations, I conclude that either (1) humans AND animals both have souls, but I can't see evidence for souls in animals; or (2) humans have souls and animals don't. But given the loads of evidence that I, personally, see to support Christianity, I conclude that option (2) is the correct one. This is my OPINION, and I'm fully willing to say that I could be wrong. Now if other people don't see the evidence that I described above, and conclude that something that has the name "love" or "courage", for example, is nothing more than our genes forcing us to act in such a way that maximizes our chances of passing on our genes and preserving the herd, then I certainly understand that they would think that a naturalistic explanation explains everything. To them, it DOES explain everything. But since I see more, it does NOT explain everything that I see, and it would be intellectually dishonest and cowardly for me to accept that explanation, so I don't. Brownie - about your question on free will and how can it be free if our previous choices put us in situations that we don't have control over - I don't think we have COMPLETE free will; I think we have LIMITED free will. And yes, our previous choices "force" us to be in certain places. But that doesn't really matter, because at any given moment, we have the free will (somewhat modified by physical constraints) to choose between options that we have in whatever situation we're in. We have the free will to choose to love someone that's not very loveable at the moment or to slight them, to exert ourselves to help someone that really needs it or to selfishly ignore them, and things like that. And the ultimate free will choice we have, according to what I think is true (altho I may be wrong), is to choose to go to heaven or hell. God grants us the supreme dignity and honor of choosing our destiny, but only within reality - everyone can't design their own heaven - how could that be possible in reality? If there is at least one contradiction among all the billions of people, then it would not be possible (i.e., if someone says "my heaven means that RÃ*an will serve me forever because I think she's a total jerk!", and MY heaven does not look like that, then it's obvious that we can't both have our heavens).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-25-2004, 03:05 PM | #258 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-25-2004, 03:27 PM | #259 | |||
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christianity is far from the only religion in our world... by your argument, i could say, the koran must be true... look at all the people who believe in it, even at the cost of their own lives... there is also a huge amount of evidence for the existance of mohammed... including prophecies, second hand accounts and all the rest many jews i know believe that christ existed... they just see him as one of many 'human' prophets Quote:
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08-25-2004, 03:32 PM | #260 |
Elf Lord
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Chronology
Well, I somewhat disagree. There are accounts in these ancient legends that the Old Testament historical information is supposed to be derived from. You know, a progressive type of myth. I don't believe that the Old Testament is a myth. Knowing that the events that occur within it actually come before Gilgamesh and the other legendary figures helps to show the impact of the Biblical events. It shows that the Bible didn't come from these legends, but rather that these legends came from the Bible. Therefore the Bible isn't a product of fantasy but fantasy is a product of the Bible. It's rather neat.
Also, many of the pre-Solomon events described in the Old Testament don't fit well according to current chronology. So accepting the current chronology, you have very weak evidence for the invasion of Canaan and for Moses, the plagues and the exodus, among other things. Adjusting the chronology as my father has done causes all of those events to fit into place. The account of Solomon and his treasure, of Israel's influence, Joseph, Moses, the plagues, the exodus, the invasion of Canaan, the defeat of Solomon's son and his treasure, the queen of Sheba's visit to Solomon and how it impacted her, are all possible to find in current history if the adjustment to the chronology is made. My father started with looking for the place where Joseph could have fitted in. There was only one point in history where the Biblical accounts fitted with history there. That wasn't according to the current chronology, so my Dad passed over that, assuming that the Bible was true and that what humans do can be flawed. Then he looked at the Biblical dates and went from there. He was amazed and filled with excitement to find how historical events matched in exact numbers of years all the events described in the Bible with the adjusted chronology. He found that there is a chronology gap in the Egyptian calendar. During the Third Intermediate period of Egyptian history, virtually everything ceases. There are almost no writings from that time. There is almost no evidence of anything that happens during that time. The Egyptian calendar was tied to other calendars. Other calendars were based upon the Egyptian calendar. Hence, all of those countries have a large 'dark age', a period of absence of data. After the years of that period passed (I believe it's 500 something years), art, history, everything picked up right where it had left off. I don't think really that this is the place for this discussion though, or the time. I can't argue my father's theories here and explain them in depth. But they are important, and brownjenkin's various points about the Old Testament are important. If he's right, the Old Testament is largely put together from other cultures and sources. The religion described in the Old Testament was pieced together from other religions. And with a large number of major historical events from the Old Testament, there's very little or no evidence that they occurred. That's all of what's at stake in this issue. So brownjenkins does bring up something important, to me. I just can't argue it here.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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