05-04-2006, 04:31 PM | #241 |
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Yet...Rome fell, and the Soviet Union, and Nazi Germany. They weren't mighty?
Yeah, other countries helped bring them down, but at least in the last two cases, a lot had to do with the idealogy of the government. It possibly was God speaking through example about what failures those sort of controlling governments were...
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05-04-2006, 04:51 PM | #242 | ||
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And I don't think fundamentalist or monarchical rule will stand the test of time in the middle east either. But I think the muslim faith probably will. It will just become more like faiths in the western world, something mostly kept to the individual. Quote:
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05-04-2006, 04:55 PM | #243 | |
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05-04-2006, 08:58 PM | #244 |
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Tell that to the British, BJ. In point of historical fact, monarchy has been around millenia longer than democracies. Never forgetting that evolution would have us believe that kingship and god arise from the tribal chief (=king), I must say you ignore the obvious BJ. Rather you should say democracies don't last, they tend to totalitarianism. Some historian.......
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05-05-2006, 09:54 AM | #245 | |
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And the totalitarianism vs. democracy battle is always a matter of two steps forward, one step back. But I don't think western democracies are tending towards totalitarianism in the long run. Even China has been slowly losing much of it's totalitarianist control over the years, and I think it will continue.
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05-05-2006, 11:13 AM | #246 | ||||||||||
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It didn't work, however. World War 1 was the decisive proof of that. It worked for a while, but it couldn’t last. After the Rwanda genocide, they said, "never again." But that also failed. Humans just don't function that way. We're too selfish and evil. Quote:
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The only way to keep people from voting based on religious values rather than secular values is to keep the religious folk out of voting booths. Also, it is nonsensical and biased to demand a purely secular government over one that represents the beliefs of the people by being religious and allowing their religious values to influence their policy proposals. Quote:
I honestly can’t see how you can say that anyway though, even aside from the history, in view of the current situations with Iran and North Korea, and WMD proliferation in general. It’s getting worse and worse as we speak. Quote:
Even if open-mindedness is related to accepting other people rather than being ready to change one’s own views, again, I would assert liberals are just as non-accepting as fundamentalists. Quote:
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By saying they’re “real world issues”, you’re making the assumption that issues that come from a religious worldview are “fake world issues.” Or at least they are sufficiently less “real world issues” that they shouldn’t be acted upon in the voting booth. But if I have experienced highly compelling evidence that demons exist, I'd say they're another real world issue. If I have seen highly compelling evidence that my religion is true, then my religion is part of the real world issues in a crucial way, and ignoring it in the voting booths would be denying reality. Quote:
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05-05-2006, 11:32 AM | #247 | |
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The only reason you say the totalitarianism vs. democracy battle is always a matter of two steps forward, one step back, is because right now democracy is prevalent in many places. And there have been times, historically, of widespread peace among nations or success. This is true in countries with dictatorships as well *Tips the hat to Gwaimir.* However, historically, these periods of human success and peace have always collapsed again into war. The fact that we have democracies existing now and no World War happening now does not mean that it will always be so.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-05-2006, 12:05 PM | #248 | |
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It's very ironic to me that atheists/agnostics call other people's beliefs "myths" while they firmly (and without proof) cling to a myth themselves. ALL of these worldviews are on the same playing field, and IMO, atheism has much less evidence for it than Christianity - and they ALL have to do with what we think reality is (but not all of them make correct claims about reality).
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05-05-2006, 02:01 PM | #249 | ||||
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If you can take just one thing from all my comments it's this: consider (just consider), that it might be possible for someone to be a devout muslim and still share 90% of the views about what is good for society as you have. Don't let the 10% you may disagree on form your opinion.
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05-05-2006, 02:10 PM | #250 | ||||
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You don't have to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to work on your car.
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05-05-2006, 03:03 PM | #251 | ||||
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05-05-2006, 03:20 PM | #252 | |||||||||||||
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2) Athens fell, also, and it was probably one of the most democratic states ever. A lot of democracies (in varying degrees) have fallen in the last couple centuries. Quote:
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Oh, for the days of Christendom! Quote:
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"Pope Assumes Authority Over World British chant 'Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes'; Americans object to "pointy-crowned king in Rome"; Slovakia is oppressed"
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05-05-2006, 05:14 PM | #253 | |
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The same can be said for much of the middle eastern population today, and I'm not talking about leaders. It's simply not fair to judge their actions by our standards. This does not mean they are completely innocent or that we turn a blind eye. But it also does not mean that we kill them all or try to bring them to christianity. It means we try to understand how they got where they were and how we can get them out. It really seems quite simple to me, and I can't understand why so many find the idea so unpalitable.
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05-05-2006, 05:16 PM | #254 |
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Forget it. I'm wasting my time.
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05-05-2006, 05:42 PM | #255 | ||
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First is that your elaboration on what you meant did not in any way refute the interpretation that you wanted fundamentalists banned from the halls of government. The second is that I've called you on that remark before, and you've never argued that I have been misinterpreting you. You've never said that you actually think it's fine for religious fundamentalists to hold government office. None of your most recent post argues that you weren't saying fundamentalists should be banned from government either- you only spoke against my voting booths comment. I believe the only way to truly separate church and state is to ban religious voters from the voting booths. But of course I might be misinterpreting you about the halls of government comment, so would you mind answering this question? It hasn't been answered clearly enough for me. The only answer I've been hearing seems affirmative, but I might be misunderstanding. Do you or do you not think that a law should exist that bans religious fundamentalists from government office? Quote:
I've already said this in previous posts, but it's worth saying again.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-05-2006 at 09:51 PM. |
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05-05-2006, 06:07 PM | #256 |
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Now, Lief, remember it is BJ you are conversing with. He really means that he wants to be able apply his societal value religiously so as to exclude anone not agnostic from the process of government so as to assure the implemetation of his views above and beyond all others because he is in harmony with the great societal more at the moment. He cannot realise that he needs to exclude the religiously anti-God on the same premise because that requires logic and understanding applied equally. So, having excluded properly the face and obverse sides of the coin we are left with the miniscule component of the side, or about 1-2 mm of surface, on which to role the government of the great unwashed. This coneptualization has a certain resonance with both Communism in theory and practice as well as Fascism and status-based social orders. It is the ever-popular, we know what is best and you will do it school of thought. It is equally employed by all sides. I guess you could say I'm agnostic about the statement when made by any other than myself!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-06-2006, 05:19 PM | #257 | ||
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Sometimes, Mooters need to include a lot more paragraph breaks in their posts. I think now is one of those times eh what Inked?
Not that I lurk in this thread. Cuz I don't. *darts eyes*
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05-06-2006, 06:08 PM | #258 | |
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I don't find the idea unpalatable (though I do disagree). I was merely using extreme examples to see if that was actually what you meant, since people (including myself) often say things which, if they really thought them out, they don't mean. I find that taking extreme examples of what one says are good ways of determining exactly what they believe.
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05-08-2006, 10:30 AM | #259 | |||||||
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You will notice that my sentence that caused so much trouble and seemed to make you disregard everything else I've posted for weeks was followed by a "". Translation: off-hand joking-around comment. And note what it was in response to: Quote:
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05-08-2006, 10:35 AM | #260 | |
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