Multi-culturalism boon or bane?

[GrayMouser]

Congrats to German PM Angela for presenting a press freedom award to Mark Westergaard, the Danish cartoonist who drew a caroon showing Mohammed wearing a bomb-shaped turban -assuming, of course, that her motives are sincere and it's not a political ploy to drum up anti-immigration support.
She also strongly condemned the Koran-burning in Forida at the same time.

Which brings me to that, and I must say I have been feeling uneasy about the response the last few days. With the full court press on this guy, I get the feeling we're seeing the application of what's known as the 'heckler's veto'- that is, the idea that yes, we have free speech, but you have to watch what you say because you might stir somebody to some crazy and violent reaction.

[Insidious Rex]

I have no problem with this crackpot receiving all the ridicule and derision hes been getting from ALL fronts. Clearly liberal and conservative, christian and non-christian have come together to renounce him as an embarrassment. The press love it though and I fear hes now getting the very attention he wanted to begin with. Hes got four star generals talking about him in press conferences and defense secretaries calling him personally to chat. Now who knows the extent of the pressure he received to call this thing off (and as I understand its gone from being on to being cancelled to now being "postponed" because he was under the impression the imam from the NY mosque agreed to move the mosque location if he cancelled the book burning. But the imam agreed to no such thing he said). Who knows what kind of threats have been leveled against him and his family (apparently a large number of FBI agents have been visiting the church regularly the past week or so). Its of course wrong to go over that first amendment line to threats of personal harm but I would have had no problem with counter demonstrators picketing his church, or even exploring any potential local zoning laws regarding open burning or such. If there was a way to legitimately legally stop him why not. Its a despicable act of a deluded crack pot. Frankly, Id be willing to risk facing trespassing charges to go down there with a hose and spray them every time they try to light a match. I think I feel compelled to act in that way to prove to the rest of the world (and especially muslim nations) that some americans so disagree with this guy that they are willing to go to that extent to stop him. One solitary man burning a koran on youtube will convince billions that america is an intolerant society that hates muslims. one man chasing the crack pot around with a hose might make them realize oh wait maybe its NOT about ALL americans after all...

[inked]

You do realise that the FBI was required to talk to him because he has received over 100 threats of physical violence and death threats from the sensitive, peace-loving, Islamic fundamentalists et alia who obviously think that the sensitive thing to do?

Also, one trusts that you are aware that it is a tenet of Islam that one can lie to non-muslims to get one's ways? As in, "gee, they'll move the proposed site from GZ to 5 blocks away" by an imam who has never talked to the principals according to the principals?

The media sure has forgotten about sensitivity and presenting all sides of the issue.

Of course, the point of his protest is that the planned mosque is insensitive, but, hey, how could a liberal media or its addicts manage to grasp that? The blinders are on.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

Also, one trusts that you are aware that it is a tenet of Islam that one can lie to non-muslims to get one's ways?

Are you referring to taqiya? Please expound further, O source of wisdom on all things Islamic.

As in, "gee, they'll move the proposed site from GZ to 5 blocks away" by an imam who has never talked to the principals according to the principals?

Since, in spite of all the coverage you still seem to be unaware of this (try sources other than Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin) there is no proposed site at Ground Zero.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

Of course, the point of his protest is that the planned mosque is insensitive, but, hey, how could a liberal media or its addicts manage to grasp that? The blinders are on.

The point of the protest is to attract undeserved attention to this crack pot. And it has worked. He has done stupid stunts like this BEFORE the whole NY Mosque controversy even started. So spare me your "conservative media" spin...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

You do realise that the FBI was required to talk to him because he has received over 100 threats of physical violence and death threats from the sensitive, peace-loving, Islamic fundamentalists et alia who obviously think that the sensitive thing to do?

So 100 out of a billion plus? Id say thats a pretty good ratio. And if you are implying that muslims as a rule are violent extremists (as you always are) did you know that Kim Kardashian received HUNDREDS of death threats from Justin Bieber fans when he announced they were dating? (and no I dont expect you to know who they are. Google it maybe. Just might want to make sure you have a good firewall...). Does that mean all american teenage females are "radical extremists" bent on killing people and committing jihad in the name of teen heart throbs or does it just mean theres enough crazy extremists in every group to make this kind of reaction a fact of human nature?

[GrayMouser]

A man after your own heart, IR:

A would-be Koran-burner in Amarillo, Texas was foiled by a 23-year-old Texas skateboarder named Jacob Isom, who was among a group of people protesting a planned burning on Saturday. As Isom described it: "I snuck up behind him and took his Koran, he said something about burning the Koran, I said 'Dude you have no Koran,' and ran off."

David Grisham, who announced the plans to burn the Koran in support of Florida Pastor Terry Jones, who called off his own planned Koran burning, is the director of Repent Amarillo. According to the Amarillo Globe-News, the group "aims to deter promiscuity, homosexuality and non-Christian worship practices through confrontation and prayer."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem....php?ref=fpblg

Though, of course, I totally disagree with his action, it's still funny.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

You do realise that the FBI was required to talk to him because he has received over 100 threats of physical violence and death threats from the sensitive, peace-loving, Islamic fundamentalists et alia who obviously think that the sensitive thing to do?

.

Speaking of the FBI and not only threats but actual plans of physical violence and death threats from the sensitive peace-loving _____ fundamentalists et alia who obviously think it is the sensitive thing to do...

FBI arrests man on bomb-making charges

http://www.salisburypost.com/Crime/0...-FBI-Moose-qcd

Fill in the blank with the correct religion and win a prize!

[GrayMouser]

Not to mention PZ Myers having to seek police protection after getting hundreds of threats over his plan to destroy a communion wafer- and he only decided to do this after the student in Florida who took a wafer in the first place was also inundated with death threats- so basically IR's point holds.

OTOH, I must admit I'd take Muslim fundamentalists threats a bit more seriously on any issue except bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors and nurses- there Christians have amply demonstrated their commitment to the cause.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

A man after your own heart, IR:

"I snuck up behind him and took his Koran, he said something about burning the Koran, I said 'Dude you have no Koran,' and ran off."

I think thats fantastic. Id do the same thing and happily risk the petty larceny charge. Its worth it to counter that message in the eyes of millions around the world. Although sooner or later some wack job is going to succeed in actually putting burning match to Koran and then stick it on Youtube to speed around the internet outraging hundreds of millions of muslims and leading to some inevitable overreaction in some far flung country. Didnt 17 people in India die recently just protesting the planned burning of the Koran? And I think that was even after the pastor had decided NOT to burn it! So hang on tight. Its inevitable stupid people will copy cat this and more stupid people will overreact violently and burn their own neighborhood down because they are angry at Islam hating america...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Not to mention PZ Myers having to seek police protection after getting hundreds of threats over his plan to destroy a communion wafer- and he only decided to do this after the student in Florida who took a wafer in the first place was also inundated with death threats- so basically IR's point holds.

You raise an interesting point, GM.

Why is it that no one in the public sphere cares about the desecration of consecrated Eucharist? When someone says "I'm going to burn a Koran and scatter the ashes," the public outrage at the act is prompt and voluminous. When someone says "I'm going to crumble a host up and grind it into the dirt," the very same people that cry blue murder about the Koran pay no attention, except to sneer at the horror of Catholics, and cry monster whenever some of them go too far.

While I don't know too much Muslim theology, my understanding is that the do not believe the Koran to actually be God, and so the desecration of a host is even more of an offense to Catholics than the burning of the Koran is to Muslims. And yet, it doesn't matter? Why?

I suspect the answer begins with a "d" and ends with an "ouble standard."

Could it possibly be that the multi-culturalism these people tout so proudly does not apply to traditional forms of Christianity?

[The Gaffer]

Probably because they have no idea what it is.

Also, burning a book is a bit more media friendly than stamping on a biscuit.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, Bull ****. Our society is not yet so post-christian that even the intelligentsia don't recognize the basic imagery, and at least some vague sense of significance, even if the theological particularities escape them. That's just ridiculous.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Perhaps it's this sort of thinking.

Maybe, deep down, the mainstream media only care about respecting Islam because they are afraid of it. Perhaps they are just as Islamophobic as Jones, divided from him only by cleverness, and a propensity for placating what they fear.

Worth a thought.

[BeardofPants]

Honestly? As an atheist, don't have the strong ties to a cracker. Someone stomping on that is like 1000% less of a statement to me than someone burning something (koran, bible, Origin of the Species, flag, etc).

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Oh, Bull ****. Our society is not yet so post-christian that even the intelligentsia don't recognize the basic imagery, and at least some vague sense of significance, even if the theological particularities escape them. That's just ridiculous.

Seriously, if this is what you think, then I fear that you need to get out more.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

While I don't know too much Muslim theology either, my understanding is that the do not believe the Koran to actually be God, and so the desecration of a host is even more of an offense to Catholics than the burning of the Koran is to Muslims. And yet, it doesn't matter? Why?

Not a scholar of Islam myself, but as I understand it, while the Koran is a created thing- there is no God but God- it has co-existed eternally with God in a state of perfection. In Arabic, of course, so every jot and tittle is divine, while translations can never be the real Koran.Written Korans are simply physical manifestations of the eternal Koran, so actually it is closer to the idea of desecrating something which is in itself sacred, rather than just a symbol of something sacred

Why is it that no one in the public sphere cares about the desecration of consecrated Eucharist? When someone says "I'm going to burn a Koran and scatter the ashes," the public outrage at the act is prompt and voluminous. When someone says "I'm going to crumble a host up and grind it into the dirt," the very same people that cry blue murder about the Koran pay no attention, except to sneer at the horror of Catholics, and cry monster whenever some of them go too far.
.......
I suspect the answer begins with a "d" and ends with an "ouble standard."

Could it possibly be that the multi-culturalism these people tout so proudly does not apply to traditional forms of Christianity?

That's certainly part of it in some cases of the multi-culti Left- Christianity is denounced as part of Western patriarchal imperialism, while far worse offences in other cultures- not only Moslem but Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist as well- are given a free pass.

For example, the Dalai Lama's view on homosexuality is almost identical to the Pope's- yet you don't see any gay rights groups protesting when he shows up in town.


(Late for class- more later.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Not a scholar of Islam myself, but as I understand it, while the Koran is a created thing- there is no God but God- it has co-existed eternally with God in a state of perfection. In Arabic, of course, so every jot and tittle is divine, while translations can never be the real Koran.Written Korans are simply physical manifestations of the eternal Koran, so actually it is closer to the idea of desecrating something which is in itself sacred, rather than just a symbol of something sacred

Fair enough; so, I guess it would roughly correspond to the hosts in question.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

For example, the Dalai Lama's view on homosexuality is almost identical to the Pope's- yet you don't see any gay rights groups protesting when he shows up in town.

So I've noticed; I've known gay people who carp on how hateful the Pope is, but have pictures of the Dalai Lama around their homes. Quoi?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Honestly? As an atheist, don't have the strong ties to a cracker. Someone stomping on that is like 1000% less of a statement to me than someone burning something (koran, bible, Origin of the Species, flag, etc).

But do you recognize, that the "frackin cracker," as I believe Myers so elegantly called it, holds a great deal of religious significance in some major branches of Christianity, and that for an outsider to intend to destroy it is an intentional affront to them?

Just curious.

Another thought: it could be tied up with the fact that the Koran is a book, and we are all programmed to react strongly to the burning of books, as destructive of the free exchange of ideas. In which case, of course, religious tolerance and respect actually have nothing to do with the reaction to Jones.

[Insidious Rex]

Its about christianity being the "home team" in my opinion. The suburban "normal" face of america religion. When an american burns a koran it becomes "christian westerners attacking islam". Thats true even if the person involved isnt christian and even if 99% of americans find their actions horribly distasteful. Because its one team doing something to another team that first team is identified with that action in its entirety (as we see here quite frequently in the other direction when certain people post here about the horrible actions of one or a small number of muslims as if to imply ALL muslims are like that). Not simply the one renegade idiot on the team that engages in the action.

Now when a bible is burned I dont feel that same primal urge to try to make it clear that as an american I am against this whole heartedly. Because we (in the collective form) are all "christians" (lower case c) here. Even us agnostics and atheists like it or not. Weve grown up in this society and its decidedly christian. So its an internal thing. We are all on that home team.

Now, I DO feel a smaller version of that because as an agnostic I wouldnt want christians thinking he is a christian hater because he shares the same (non) faith as the bible burner. But its a far cry from having ALL americans lumped in with a crazy koran burner. I interact with christians every day and feel comfortable the vast majority wouldnt see me that way because of our familiarity with each other as opposed to how a muslim from a middle east slum who has had NO contact with christians and NO contact with westerners might perceive an american burning the koran.

I would still have the same reaction if I heard someone announcing they planned to burn the bible as I did with the Koran (in that Id really want to protest their actions and stop them if I could) BUT the aspect of not wanting the "other team" to think Im part of that mindset doesnt exist in that scenario. Does that make burning the Koran more distasteful to me? I dont think so. Just one less reason to be frantic about it. And I have to say honestly I would not have the same reaction to a communion wafer as I would to the bible OR the koran. To me that would just be silly to see a grown man stomping a tiny cracker. I would not share with you that blasphemous horror you feel about such actions but I would feel that if it was the koran or the bible. I mean does the same reaction apply if you pour out or spit out communion wine?

But fear doesnt enter into it for me, other than the indirect fear that such actions would most certainly put our soldiers in a more precarious situation but thats not what gets me to react viscerally. What gets me to react viscerally is being misrepresented by idiots on MY team doing things in my name as far as the other team is concerned. If your brother does something stupid do you feel a stronger sense of anger about it then if it was someone you had no connection to? Because he brings embarrassment to you or your family with his actions? I cant speak for why others react but thats the kind of feeling I have...