06-28-2005, 08:16 PM | #241 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What's been really striking about this discussion, IMO, is how you pretty much do everything you can to avoid using terms like right and wrong, yet you can't help doing it, over and over again, indirectly. When you are careful about what you say, you won't use right and wrong, but when you answer without trying to be careful, your warm and caring heart makes you say all sorts of things that show a VERY strong belief in right and wrong (and this is why I like you!) And not only a personal opinion of right and wrong, but an objective/global existence of right and wrong. This, to me, shows a serious disconnect between your worldview and reality, which indicates that your worldview is, IMO, most probably inaccurate, because the more accurate a worldview is, the more it should line up with reality.
One of the first things I noticed about you, IRex, is your kind and caring and passionate posts on the venting thread, especially to young ladies (you are very chivalrous and protective of women and the disadvantaged!) That's what first made me like you, despite your sometimes T-Rexy outbursts of temper! But despite your passionate defences of those that you think have been wronged, you won't call things right or wrong when you're trying to be careful about what you say! This shows me that disconnect that I mentioned. See, if you would just say, "I think it's wrong to be unjust, but I realize there is no objective right and wrong so you go ahead and do what you think is right", then I wouldn't have a logical problem with what you say. But you don't do this - you actually tell others that they're wrong! But how can you logically do this if not only is there no universal right/wrong? (of course you CAN and DO do this, but it's not LOGICAL for you to do this within the framework of your worldview, which is a serious case against the validity of your worldview.) One way you've tried to get around this is to say that morals have somehow evolved - that people that acted in certain ways tended to survive to pass on their genes. This is a possible solution, in some ways, if you are willing to ignore a lot of other data. What you're ignoring (or trying to ignore, but it's obvious from your posts that you really don't) is the human heart or soul, or whatever name you want to give it. You say we act certain ways because our genes are more likely to get passed on that way. If you really want to accept that small view of the world, then I guess you're free to do so, but that means that things like beauty, courage, honor, truth, humor, and even love are meaningless. MEANINGLESS. If you're willing to accept that, then I guess there's nothing I can do to stop you, but I will object to you telling me things like I shouldn't be against gay marriage. How can I be "wrong" if (acc'd to your viewpoint) it's my genes driving my behavior? Words like "should" imply something is right or wrong, but you won't use those terms, so why do you keep telling me what I "should" and "shouldn't" do? Within the framework of your worldview, those words are meaningless. Why is it wrong to be unjust if there are no objective rights and wrongs? Perhaps we'll "evolve" in a few years to where injustice is fine, right? (at least enough so our species will survive - perhaps just torturing a few babies every once in awhile for fun or something.) HOW can you tell me something is wrong - UNLESS you're appealing to a universal right that you think we should BOTH come in line with? Yet you do this over and over. Doesn't that make you wonder if your worldview is wrong? One way to divide up the possibility of what is really true in the universe is this question - do god/gods exist, or not? If so, then morality makes sense, because there is an outside authoritative being independent of humans. If not, then morality makes no sense whatsoever, because one person's opinion is as good as another's, and therefore one can't be right and another wrong. Yet EVERY DAY, EVERY ONE OF US appeals to a universal standard! the most basic being that it is WRONG to harm someone else for selfish gain. Our conversations are absolutely FILLED with references to things that are right and wrong! And I can't see how this would make sense to us, and how it would be so universal, if god/gods do not exist. Do you? The only way that I see that you can is to deny a large part of life - the part that says beauty and courage and honor and humor and love are actually GOOD things. As I said before, if God doesn't exist, then Frodo was a fool to do what he did. Yet all of us here admire him ... that should tell us something ... think about it ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-28-2005, 08:18 PM | #242 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think the only way you can defend a non-theistic worldview is to deny, in some way, your head (logic), your heart (which is a huge part of existence), and/or reality.
Both theistic and non-theistic worldviews are non-proveable - but to me, the one that jives the most with head and heart and reality is a theistic one. And among the theistic ones, Christianity is the most logical and the most matching to reality, IMO, so that's why I believe it's true.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-28-2005 at 08:23 PM. |
06-28-2005, 08:22 PM | #243 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(test)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-29-2005, 01:00 PM | #244 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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*spam trap*
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! |
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06-29-2005, 01:07 PM | #245 |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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[QUOTE=R*an]And a restatement of the 3 tests that I think are valuable in evaluating a person's worldview:
Test 1. does it jive with the evidence I know about; Test 2. is it internally logically consistent; and Test 3. does it hold up when "the rubber meets the road". QUOTE] Test 1 is likely based upon personal experience/knowledge....which, though no fault of our own, equates into a very limiting discretion-tool. Test 2 is certainly the most "comfortable" measuring stick for me Test 3 Complicated....I'll read your post concerning it before commenting. Note: I'll never feel bad about long post again between you, inked, and Rex...hahaha
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! |
06-29-2005, 01:15 PM | #246 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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I agree, there's more to it all than chemicals/biology/and space dust if we rather universally acknowledge Frodo was "Spot On" to risk his life destroying the ring....that which could have given him large selfish gratification... Excellent post as usual R*an Edit: needed to come back and correct spelling…..got busy at work
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! Last edited by EarthBound : 06-29-2005 at 02:47 PM. |
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06-29-2005, 02:38 PM | #247 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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So if you are hell bent an not using the word unjust and instead using the word wrong then that’s my response to you. Now lets have a little truth and advertising and show that WHOLE quote shall we… Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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06-29-2005, 02:59 PM | #248 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I was having that trouble with posts appearing, so I made a test post to see if the previous two would show up. You pass the test!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2005, 03:03 PM | #249 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2005, 03:11 PM | #250 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm glad you think so, and glad you are taking me at face value. I'm NOT into tricks and deception at ALL, despite what IRex says I'm NOT! and his accusations grieve me. I think too highly of people to deceive them, and I think too highly of truth to deceive someone, even if it gives me a "win". I'd rather lose on what I consider to be the truth than win with a deception.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2005, 03:20 PM | #251 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2005, 04:37 PM | #252 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's another angle - imagine you with your little Rexlings gathered around, and Rita Rexling grabs a toy away from Roger Rexling and bops him on the head with it. What would you tell Rita?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2005, 10:04 PM | #253 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's another question - if you go to pregnancystore.com, you'll see their new product that will tell a mother the sex of her baby at 5 weeks. Do you guys think it's fine for a mom to use this test to abort, say, a girl fetus (or two or three or more) if she wants a boy?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-30-2005, 11:10 AM | #254 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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[sweet voice] I think to consider the "life" of a fetus so insignificant (to chuck out the undesired sex/fetus like unwanted brazil nuts from a can of mixed nuts) you would need to consider your own life small and pointless to toss away something so obviously precious; it would be "sickness" of the worst kind. A life completely without appreciation for the "magic" that begat anything at all! What's interesting is that Religion is used as ballast for an opine on abortion from BOTH sides of the issue while it need not be the distinguishing characteristic....what about decent appreciation for Life itself? Does a rejection (reflection) of God require one to reject the sanctity of Life? Why the constant battle over this issue in a religious format, not that it can't be based 'belief' wise there, but seems rather a "humane" and "Life Appreciation" issue? [not meant to be a baiting/flaming post but rather a sincere post] *
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! Last edited by EarthBound : 06-30-2005 at 02:19 PM. |
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06-30-2005, 01:21 PM | #255 | |
Elf Lord
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To answer Rian's question, depends on what you mean by OK. Legally, possibly. Morally, no. In (UK) law, IIRC, to get an abortion you have to persuade a medic that you need one. That would be a hard conversation to have if the basis were gender. In fact, it may specifically be outlawed as I think some amendments were made via the Human Embryology and Fertilisation Act which affected this. Not sure though. |
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06-30-2005, 02:55 PM | #256 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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And I find it a little disingenuous for you to introduce a term like “soul” to justify that I somehow don’t understand morals. Talk about a meaningless term… You application of soul (and heart in this context) implies a strictly Christian ideology. You cant tell me Im wrong about something because in order to begin to understand id have to blindly embrace a Christian notion. Talk about limiting and self fulfilling. I find that forcing specific definitions on people make it’s a lot less likely they will be able to properly discern the full picture. Or at least see the full array of variables available because so many will be outside of their little box. Quote:
small view? Ha ha!! It’s a simple fact that many actions in nature can be traced to genes. do you deny this? Want me to give you several million examples? Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 06-30-2005 at 03:03 PM. |
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06-30-2005, 03:03 PM | #257 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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06-30-2005, 03:10 PM | #258 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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06-30-2005, 03:16 PM | #259 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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06-30-2005, 07:32 PM | #260 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do you think abortion for other reasons is OK? Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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