Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[Gwaimir Windgem]

A measure of wisdom I did not possess.

Yes, I've noticed that too. The only thing that people complain about is what America does, and they always talk about what America does wrong. I have come to the conclusion that America and her people are the only beings in the world capable of imperfection.

[Lady_of_the_Golden_Wood]

I resemble that!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
*sigh* I wish people would view the world with a form of realism and take the covers off their eyes...

Yes - the simplistic view of the world is a bit much. I wish the world was a perfect place and there weren't people like al Qaeda, Hussein, Meloshivic, Jung Il, etc. But there are.


Firekitten2006 - 9/11 is a fact. I've seen Ground Zero several times. I had seen the Twin Towers a ton of times. It is a fact that the terrorist came from the Middle East and promotes terrorist activities. It is a fact that Hussein supports the Palestinian suicide bombers. Do you suggest we just wait until Hussein decides to start selling his weapons to terrorist organisations? I don't. We have to take proactive action against these type of regimes. We went into Bosnia for actually much less.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You re...

-.-

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I have come to the conclusion that America and her people are the only beings in the world capable of imperfection.

Wait - all the credit for aid and helping the Iraqi's will go to everyone else - other than America.

[Starr Polish]

*sigh* I wish people would view the world with a form of realism and take the covers off their eyes...

As do I, Dunedain. Though I lean toward pacifism, I AM a realist. Humans fight over stupid things, and we're power hungry. Nothing will change that.

About the French - According to my American History teacher (who obviously has been extremely vocal about this lately, and is sure to be even more so when we return from spring break on Monday), there are trade relations between Iraq and France, which is probably one of the major reasons their government (I don't know about the people, I haven't been up on the French polls, nor have I been there lately ) isn't supporting the war.

It's Western dressing, not French dressing! Personally, I think that's ridiculous. Pretty much jingoism as well. It happened with more than just hot dogs during WWII as well. The breed of dogs called German Sheperds were called something different, though I can't remember what.

Going back farther in the thread - to be nit-picky, picking on the French wouldn't be racist, per se, since "French" isn't a race, it's a nationality. BUT, I do see were you are coming from, and it is something that we have to be extremely aware of, or prejudice will arise. We don't need another incident of the Nisei camps.

[jerseydevil]

By the way - in one town which was being liberated - iraqi's came up to our soldiers and gave them kisses on the cheeks. They cheered and hugged and laughed.

One woman came up to one of the soldiers crying saying that they were too late - Hussein had killed her son the month before.

One US Marine started to rip down one of the huge posters of Saddam Hussein and an Iraqi went up there and helped him (at the same time as beating the face of Hussein with his shoe ).

When a marine took down the Iraqi flag and replaced it with an American flag - Washington immediately told them to take it down and put the Iraqi flag back up. We are NOT occupying - we are liberating. I was not happy our flag went up like that and I'm glad they made them take it down.

The Iraqi citizens live under a brutal dictator who tortures and kills his own people. One Iraqi exile the other day on the news told how the people who were captured during the up rising in 1991 - were executed by acid baths. Can you imagine being dumped into a vat of acid and eaten away like that? Without US intervention - this will continue to go on.

[Starr Polish]

Also, I would like to comment on the IMPEACH BUSH comment made by Evenstar_14 (I think).

I live in a Democratic party state (Iowa). I hear complaints about Bush nearly every single day, at school and at work (though not at home. My stepdad is a steadfast Republican and my dad is a Libertarian). I usually hold my tongue, because I refuse to get involved in politics among my peers, since most of them are extremelely biased and refuse to even pretend to listen to another's opinion, when it comes to politics. They also think they know everything.

Think of our other option. Al Gore. I wonder how he would have handled 9/11, let alone the Hussein issue.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Think of our other option. Al Gore. I wonder how he would have handled 9/11, let alone the Hussein issue.

Don't make me cringe. Hussein wouldn't be an issue -Gore would just let Hussein go about his business. Gore's foreign advisers would have been much weaker than Bushes. Bush has Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell - two of the best minds when it comes to international politics (even though supposedly they don't always see eye to eye).

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Don't make me cringe. Hussein wouldn't be an issue -Gore would just let Hussein go about his business. Gore's foreign advisers would have been much weaker than Bushes. Bush has Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell - two of the best minds when it comes to international politics (even though supposedly they don't always see eye to eye).

Honestly bro you are speculating big time. I don't think you can say Hussein would not be an issue nor can you say his foreign advisors would be weaker. This isn't the time to play politics. Honestly, we don't know how things would have been after 9/11 if Gore was in office. It would have changed his presidency just as it did Bush....

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Honestly bro you are speculating big time. I don't think you can say Hussein would not be an issue nor can you say his foreign advisors would be weaker. This isn't the time to play politics. Honestly, we don't know how things would have been after 9/11 if Gore was in office. It would have changed his presidency just as it did Bush....

Well, it can't be anything BUT speculation, since Gore isn't president.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Honestly bro you are speculating big time. I don't think you can say Hussein would not be an issue nor can you say his foreign advisors would be weaker. This isn't the time to play politics. Honestly, we don't know how things would have been after 9/11 if Gore was in office. It would have changed his presidency just as it did Bush....

It's not complete speculation - the presidential cabinet is determined by the candidates before the elections. I personally didn't really want bush - nor did I want gore. I however DID want Bush's cabinet - in particular Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell. In this election - I was voting for the President's cabinet - since I didn't really like either candidate.

In terms of 9/11 - I didn't say how Gore would have done it - because I don't know how he would have handled it. I do not think he would have taken an issue with Hussein though.

[jerseydevil]

Here is a sample of Hussein's brutality...

A Worthy Cause
Women Who Know of Saddam’s Brutality Say This War Is Just

...even young girls were imprisoned for what seem to be trivial offenses. Al-Suwaij says she had a 16-year-old cousin who was beaten and tortured with electrical shocks for having written something against the government in her school notebook.

And if a man is a dissident or if a man writes a letter or makes a joke about Saddam, these women said, authorities would rape his wife or female relatives in front of him.

"Rape is used as a tool to humiliate the woman, but to also bring men into submission," Hussain said. To compound the humiliation, authorities would videotape the torture and rape and send the tape to family members.

Al-Suwaij has seen the inside of an Iraqi prison, and she describes horrific scenes. She said she was shown "human meat grinders" in which people were shredded and disposed of in a septic tank, and chemical baths in which people were literally dissolved.

"You cannot exaggerate about these things. People were slaughtered," she said.

"After the failed uprising I was hiding for two months until I left Iraq," said al-Suwaij.

These women are saddened that America and its allies backed off and let Saddam continue his brutal reign after the 1991 war. They ask, Where was the United Nations then? Where were all these human rights activists?

Where are they today? the women ask. Just two weeks ago, a Kurdish mother of eight was splashed with gasoline and set ablaze by military police for no reason, she told Kurdish television.

"We're asking the, the whole world, to see our suffering inside Iraq. We ask them to participate in our freedom and liberty," Rasool said. "Iraqi people suffered enough during 35 years, and they deserve freedom."

The report on TV was much more graphic. For instance - the 16 year old cousin received electric shocks "on the lips, nipples and other sensitive parts". I think we all know what the sensitive parts are referring to. I wish more people would be outraged by this treatment.

For more of the brutality go to - Women for a Free Iraq

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's not happening to the people of their country, so I guess they don't care.

Acid baths and human meat grinders? Eru above, what a monster!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
It's not happening to the people of their country, so I guess they don't care.

Acid baths and human meat grinders? Eru above, what a monster!

Yeah - as long as it's done behind closed doors - no one really cares. I guess that was the mistake Miloshevic made. If he just put the concentration camps inside and called them jails - the rest of the world have just sat back and let the slaughter occur. The US then would have been looked at as the evil one trying to stop a simple mad man who posed no real threat to the outside world.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
It's not happening to the people of their country, so I guess they don't care.

You're being most unfair. People care, but there are more despots than Saddam Hussein around the world, equally cruel or worse, and you cannot concentrate on more than a few of them simultaneously. And not all people believe in war as the answer. They believe in peaceful reactions.

And mind you, this comes from a person who support war against Iraq (though I resent the way it was treated in the UN).

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Artanis
And not all people believe in war as the answer. They believe in peaceful reactions.

With tyrants and despots, there is no such thing as peaceful reactions though...

I am sure you know that Artanis, but it is hard to believe that people in the world don't get it. History tells us all...

[Aeryn]

Originally posted by Coney
Typical.....the first british troops are killed by a friendly force

You mean it's typical they were drunk at the wheel?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, you're right, that was unfair.

But what kind of peaceful resolutions? How do people expect to deal with these monsters?

[jerseydevil]

Since everyone responded to the other point - I'll respond to this...

Originally posted by Artanis
You're being most unfair. People care, but there are more despots than Saddam Hussein around the world, equally cruel or worse, and you cannot concentrate on more than a few of them simultaneously.

So - if we can't handlle ALL the problems - then we shouldn't handle any?

I know you stated you were playing devil's advocate and you do support the war - but I wanted to point out - just because there are other "evil dictators and regimes" does not mean we should not take action on the ones we can.