Theological Opinions

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I only told you as a courtesy, JD.

My final statement, made after I read it thru and edited it within a minute or two to make it more clear, is currently in my post.

The time stamps indictae that you posted yoru message at 2:54pm, I posted my message at 3:01pm, your edit stamp says 3:05pm. The only thing I edited in at 3:05pm in my post was the last paragraph where I talk about my family. You went in and did a 11 minute edit on your post (and anyway - how is that "within a minute or two" as you claim)?

I'm sorry - I think you saw my post, saw how it blew a hole in your argument and you THEN went back to make an edit to close the hole. You have done that on several occassions. Therefore I will NOT be changing my quote.

[Nurvingiel]

It's just an edit! (we need a less spastic eek face for right here)

Anyway, what did you think of my big giant post guys? (Had responses for JD and RÃ*an.) We seem to have scared off all the other Mooters. Apologies!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

It's just an edit! (we need a less spastic eek face for right here)

It's not just an edit when it's a debate and after someone responds.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Very interesting JD. Thanks for describing Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic. I don't have anything to add though except for the last part - I think the chanting would be very cool.
*files away useful information about JDs childhood*

My friend jason kept talking for months - about the chanting at my mother's wake and then how the whole mass was chanted.

Hree is a site with links where you can listen to the chanted mass - but currently the audio is down or something - http://www.mliles.com/melkite/divineliturgy.shtml

Anyway - the site does provide information about the Greek Catholic church also.

Did you go to a Sader dinner last weekend? (Oh my... Passover was last weekend right? )

Nope - I didn't go last week, But then last week wasn't passover. April 24th is the first day of passover this year.

I can see that for myself as well, even though I haven't attended a Pentecostal service or anything similar. Though I don't think you necessarily need solemnity for a respectful service, I think respect is key. For me, the meaning would be lost without respect.

I like solemn quiet masses.

I know you don't pay attention to it. I had to remind you about some other significant number you had reached. I think it was 8888. Well keep an eye out for 10K. That number is significant to people fond of base ten counting.

Yeah - I know Jonathan wil be watching my post count for me. Since I don't - I need to rely on others.

I enjoyed the camping/suburban analogy. I snipped it because I don't have any specific responses. This does sound a bit like my parents though. They also love camping, and we got a Volvo 10 years ago that suited our needs well. It did have one fault though, that we discovered over the years - the brakes were just a little too light for all the abuse we heaped on it driving around the Rockies and (for my parents last summer) Arizona. My dad made the final decision on buying the Volvo, even though my mom had a lot of input. There's a variety of reasons why my dad probably made the final decision, but one is that he's very knowledgeable about cars.
Well, a few months ago our beautiful Volvo (it was a really really great car) had to be replaced. My mom made the final decision on a Toyota Highlander, though by dad had a lot of input. The main hope is that a car-based SUV will have the brakes to handle further camping trip abuses. Research is a strong point for both my parents.

It sounds like my parents UP TO A POINT though. My mother would never have, nor would I expend anyone to turn around and say "okay dear, we've discussed it - now make the decission." If a decision couldn't be reached by concensus - then another car was looked at - pure and simple. It was also always a family decision and we would all look over the car catalogs and state what we liked or didn't like about the cars.

I think that too much emphasis can be placed on how men and women are different. Yes we are, but we are individuals first. I think society places entirely too much emphasis on this point. I sure don't think you're a doormat RÃ*an.

I agree - I think both men and women - whether are husband or wife - are individuals. And as such - i think BOTH should have EQUAL say in the FINAL decision. Not leaving it up to just the man. As I said - I think that whole concept is rather archaic.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It's not just an edit when it's a debate and after someone responds.

I did not see your quote of my post until after the edit. That is the truth. Believe it or not, as you will.

I thought it was within a minute or two. I guess it was longer. So what? So maybe I didn't want to mention I went to the bathroom during those 11 minutes I was editing the post!

Either quote is fine by me. I prefer my edit, because I think it's clearer, but either quote is fine by me.

I'm sorry - I think you saw my post, saw how it blew a hole in your argument and you THEN went back to make an edit to close the hole. You have done that on several occassions.

I would like to state that this is a false accusation, and you are unaware of why I edit. The only reason I edit is for clarification.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

It's just an edit! (we need a less spastic eek face for right here)

Thank you, Nurvi

I'm busy on the creationism thread now, I'll have to respond later. I did agree with one thing you said, tho - "However, what you have described (barring a few points) does not appear to be different from two people having a respectful marriage."

I agree

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I would like to state that this is a false accusation, and you are unaware of why I edit. The only reason I edit is for clarification.

How is it an accusation when I said "I THINK" right in the beginning of it. I didn't claim to say I knew of the reason. I tis my opinion though and still is of that opinion.

Let me requote so you can see it all in it's glory...

I'm sorry - I think you saw my post, saw how it blew a hole in your argument and you THEN went back to make an edit to close the hole.

[Rían]

It's the "you have done that on several occasions" that I referred to as a false accusation.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yes, that was interesting. Glad you got your tea and Genesis time in.

(made me go to the bathroom, tho! )

EDIT - ooops, THOUGH!

Who wrote "Sorry my letter is so long, if I had more time it would be shorter?"

That's funny!

Thanks for taking the time with the series of posts. However, what you have described (barring a few points) does not appear to be different from two people having a respectful marriage.

I agree.

Being brainless is a sin!? People are screwed. Unless by "sin" you mean "something wrong" and not "something you're going to hell for". Then I agree with all of the above (quoted text).

No, what I mean is what you DO with your brain is either right or wrong. You can't help how MUCH brain you have (as Winnie-the-Pooh pointed out). What you CAN help is what you do with what you have. And not thinking (with whatever ya got) is, IMO, wrong.

[Rían]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, JD. I'm very sorry if I did. I saw the "think" in the first sentence and appreciated it. Then the second sentence seemed to have a flat-out false accusation. I'm sorry if I overreacted and misunderstood you. I regret responding to your post, and won't do it again.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It's the "you have done that on several occasions" that I referred to as a false accusation.

Well you have gone into change previous post after I posted in response. That is a fact.

I see you have posted again clarifying your misunderstanding - so your apology is accepted.

[Rían]

And another fact is I never saw your post until after I finished my edit

I imagine this is because I never scrolled down; instead, I just hit the edit button at the bottom of my post to make some clarifications.

As I said, either one is fine by me. Personally I think my edited version is "tougher" on me to support, but I don't care.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And another fact is I never saw your post until after I finished my edit

That may be so. I'm going by time stamps here though.

As I said, either one is fine by me. Personally I think my edited version is "tougher" on me to support, but I don't care.

I don't see how.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

However, I don't see why there needs to be specific gender roles. Though they seem blurred (which does make sense), why is "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..." only directed at the husbands? Why use the word "serve" interchangeably with "respect" as it seems to be (elsewhere in your post)? The two are not synonymous IMO. Why not just have "husbands and wives, respect each other".

Oy, you just opened up another whole massive rabbit trail!! The whole "respect" and "love" thing is very interesting!

I don't quite understand how "serve" and "respect" are interchangeable, tho. Could you please explain?

To keep it very short, I think that most people would agree that women tend to be more relational. There's all sorts of studies that show that women are just better, in general, at this aspect of life. I like the playground study where words were counted that were spoken by boys and girls. The girls had MASSIVE amounts of words, and they were usually about relational subjects. The boys had ... noises! Airplane noises, car noises, etc. So in a general letter directed at general people, the apostle wrote (under God the designer's guidance) that men needed to concentrate on loving their wives in a way wives understand. Wives, apparently, do it more naturally

And respect - in my experience, respect is more important to men than it is to women. In my experience, women prize relationships over respect, in general. And so in a general letter written to general people, the wives were asked to respect their husbands, because they don't do it as naturally as they express love, and respect is important to guys.

Now, BOTH husband and wife need to respect each other. BOTH husband and wife need to love each other. But in this letter, written to a general group of people, the apostle was encouraging the wives to do what was not as natural to them, and the husbands to do what was not as natural to them.

Do you see what I mean?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I enjoyed the camping/suburban analogy. I snipped it because I don't have any specific responses. This does sound a bit like my parents though. They also love camping, and we got a Volvo 10 years ago that suited our needs well. It did have one fault though, that we discovered over the years - the brakes were just a little too light for all the abuse we heaped on it driving around the Rockies and (for my parents last summer) Arizona. My dad made the final decision on buying the Volvo, even though my mom had a lot of input. There's a variety of reasons why my dad probably made the final decision, but one is that he's very knowledgeable about cars.

Yes, and my husband defers to me in areas that I know more. It is MY choice that it is HIS choice to decide, tho .... er, though (sorry, this is hard changing from 'tho' to 'though'!)

What you described with your husband sounds a lot like my parents.

Yes, it sounds like they work well together, and so do my husband and I.

I think that too much emphasis can be placed on how men and women are different. Yes we are, but we are individuals first.

Yes, we are, but I think my womanhood is an essential part of who I am. Before I had kids and CHOSE to stay home with them, I was an engineer, working in a military radar company, with a top-secret clearance, and I would give presentations to generals in the US military as well as foreign militaries (I'll never forget the Turks - they gave me the heebie-jeebies! And the Korean general made a pass at me! ). And I was extremely feminine. No conflict.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And respect - in my experience, respect is more important to men than it is to women. In my experience, women prize relationships over respect, in general. And so in a general letter written to general people, the wives were asked to respect their husbands, because they don't do it as naturally as they express love, and respect is important to guys.

I would counter this and say that without respect there is no relationship. I don't see how a woman can prize a relationship where she isn't respected.

Now, BOTH husband and wife need to respect each other. BOTH husband and wife need to love each other. But in this letter, written to a general group of people, the apostle was encouraging the wives to do what was not as natural to them, and the husbands to do what was not as natural to them.

I disagree with your assessment here and the issue of how boys play versus how girls play has no real relevence in my opinion on respect. There is a difference generally in social aspects - but not in my view respect.

How is respect more important to men? Woman may be more social than men - but men will usually die much younger after losing a spouse than a woman does. Therefore - I would consider the relationship to be VERY important to a man.

[Rían]

I sure don't think you're a doormat RÃ*an.

Y'know, some people I've spoken with think submission is for the goal of peacekeeping. That might be true for others, but it's CERTAINLY not true for me. You should have SEEN me these past two nights! I was fightin' like a rabid dog for a point that I thought was extremely important in an area I thought my husband was morally wrong (nothing huge - it was just a way he was dealing with our oldest son. He's old enough now that they butt heads sometimes and they both get angry, and I was proposing ways to deal with it better). It was exhausting, mentally and physically - and it would have been TONS easier to drop it! - but I didn't, because that's not the loving thing to do. We kept at it - and I made my case, and stuck with it, and he agreed I was right in the end. I knew I was right, and he knew it, too, but was not in the mood right then to acknowledge it. I kept at it in a loving manner, as I try to have with all people, and he admitted I was right.

If he had told me, "I'm your husband, and I order you to stop talking!", I would have refused. Or I would have said, "If you're too tired to talk now, I understand - please let me know as soon as you're able to talk, because I think it's a very important subject and we need to talk about it."

My goal is NOT peace; it's love. And tough love, when necessary.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks for replying JD and RÃ*an. I went to the website JD. Very cool! But the small text on the cyan background hurts my eyes.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oy, you just opened up another whole massive rabbit trail!! The whole "respect" and "love" thing is very interesting!

I don't quite understand how "serve" and "respect" are interchangeable, tho. Could you please explain?

I don't think they are interchangeable. I thought you were using them this way, for example here:

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So how did Christ love the church, so that the husbands can obey this command? Well, He died to save her, and He served her, and He put her needs before His.

I took this as a command for the husband to respect the wife. What does this quote (above) mean?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

To keep it very short, I think that most people would agree that women tend to be more relational. There's all sorts of studies that show that women are just better, in general, at this aspect of life. I like the playground study where words were counted that were spoken by boys and girls. The girls had MASSIVE amounts of words, and they were usually about relational subjects. The boys had ... noises! Airplane noises, car noises, etc. So in a general letter directed at general people, the apostle wrote (under God the designer's guidance) that men needed to concentrate on loving their wives in a way wives understand. Wives, apparently, do it more naturally

I disagree. (Natch. ) Even if this is true in many, or even most cases, how is a good marriage based on what other people do? As I said earlier, people are individuals. If you respect each other, including your respective strengths and weakness, this lays the groundwork for a good marriage. The husband doesn't need extra rules just because he made truck noises when he was a little boy. I know you're not saying this exactly, but my point is that I don't think people should define their marriage on generalizations that may not apply to them. (Well, they can do what they like, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.)

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And respect - in my experience, respect is more important to men than it is to women. In my experience, women prize relationships over respect, in general. And so in a general letter written to general people, the wives were asked to respect their husbands, because they don't do it as naturally as they express love, and respect is important to guys.

Again, I feel this general statement is not necessary in the marriage between two individuals.
If respect is not as important to the wife as the relationship then she should certainly take that into account. If it's of equal or greater importance, then she should take that into account. Neither the husband nor the wife need someone else to tell them how they feel.

In my opinion a relationship is nothing without respect. To me, respect is the most important thing because I place great value on love and the reltaionship itself. But without respect, both love and the relationship are meaningless.
(I see that JD has said this already. Perhaps we cross-posted. But I wasn't copying! )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now, BOTH husband and wife need to respect each other. BOTH husband and wife need to love each other. But in this letter, written to a general group of people, the apostle was encouraging the wives to do what was not as natural to them, and the husbands to do what was not as natural to them.

Well I agree with the first part of this completely. What wasn't natural for the wives and husbands? (Not to beat this point to death, but I don't think you can say something is unnatural for an entire group of people.)[/quote]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Do you see what I mean?

Erm...

Well, you seem to be of two minds. I'm confused. On the one hand, you seem to be stating that both the husband and wife need to respect each other. On the other hand, you suggest that the husband and wife must go about this in different ways. Is it these different ways, with accompanying respect, that form the idea of Biblical submission?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvi

Well, you seem to be of two minds. I'm confused. On the one hand, you seem to be stating that both the husband and wife need to respect each other. On the other hand, you suggest that the husband and wife must go about this in different ways. Is it these different ways, with accompanying respect, that form the idea of Biblical submission?

I guess I'm not expessing myself well I'll give it a try later - gtg get the kiddos!

[Nurvingiel]

Okay here I definitely cross-posted with you. Seems we're all in here at once. Party in the Theology thread!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Y'know, some people I've spoken with think submission is for the goal of peacekeeping. That might be true for others, but it's CERTAINLY not true for me. You should have SEEN me these past two nights! I was fightin' like a rabid dog for a point that I thought was extremely important in an area I thought my husband was morally wrong (nothing huge - it was just a way he was dealing with our oldest son. He's old enough now that they butt heads sometimes and they both get angry, and I was proposing ways to deal with it better). It was exhausting, mentally and physically - and it would have been TONS easier to drop it! - but I didn't, because that's not the loving thing to do. We kept at it - and I made my case, and stuck with it, and he agreed I was right in the end. I knew I was right, and he knew it, too, but was not in the mood right then to acknowledge it. I kept at it in a loving manner, as I try to have with all people, and he admitted I was right.

If he had told me, "I'm your husband, and I order you to stop talking!", I would have refused. Or I would have said, "If you're too tired to talk now, I understand - please let me know as soon as you're able to talk, because I think it's a very important subject and we need to talk about it."

My goal is NOT peace; it's love. And tough love, when necessary.

Your goal is not peace, it's WAR! Bwahaha... oh, love.


I was thinking about this getting a snack in the kitchen... if my husband ordered to me to stay home with the kids, I would probably tell him to get bent. But I might choose to stay at home for a while.
At this point in my life I can't imagine staying home, but I can imagine myself having kids at some distant date.

EDIT:
We cross-posted again...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I guess I'm not expessing myself well I'll give it a try later - gtg get the kiddos!

Don't worry, I'm sure it will all become clear. It is a complex issue. See you in a later cross-post.