REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think she meant psychically.

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You mean "psychologically"?

Originally posted by brownjenkins
very rarely though (among those of the same species), and almost always for reasons that help preserve the particular animal's society as a whole... only mankind kills it's own in ways that are detrimental to their species' survival

Wow, we're way off topic here. However...
... animals kill for a variety of reasons. When you say "among those of the same species" I have to correct you.

A good example: A male lion who drives away the male in a pride will commonly kill small cubs, because a nursing female will not come into heat. The male lion may only have limited time as the head of the pride, as any time another male may challenge him. If the females do not come into heat, they will not mate with him. By killing the young nursing cubs, the females will go into heat sooner and will accept him to mate with.

That's just one example.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Valandil, what religion would you classify someone who believes in your god, believes the bible is the word of your god, and believes that Jesus was the son of god (and/or god in human form sent to Earth), yet would not be considered "saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience"?

Like I said, there are different kinds of 'belief'. If someone asked you if you believed in Elvis, or in George W. Bush (or Bill Clinton or whomever), and your response was, "Yes, I believe that he exists / existed" - that's one thing. It's a whole 'nuther thing to say, "Yes, I BELIEVE in Elvis!!!" or "Yes, I BELIEVE in George W. Bush!!! I think he's the RIGHT man to lead our country in these difficult times!!!"

In the same way, some take on a 'casual' belief in God without ever going any deeper - "yeah, I believe God exists, I believe Jesus is His Son, sure - that's what I was always taught to believe" - While another would say in their heart, "YES, I BELIEVE in God and in Jesus Christ His Son, my Savior, whose love I have personally experienced!" It's a whole different thing.

And I will grant too, that some of the latter will struggle with sin, some with deep, dark sin. Some will commit crimes and (hopefully) go to prison for it. We still have sin there with us (see Romans 7), but we also have God making the provision of His Spirit at work in our lives when we seek Him (see Romans 8). Some sincere Christians don't take the opportunities to grow spiritually.

Some will take the name of "Christian" though, and let themselves off the hook too easily in regard to sin ("Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase? By no means!!" - Romans 6:1 I think, but that's from my foggy memory) Some will take that first thought - and forget the "by no means"

Anyway, you told us something you'd heard, and asked us what we thought, so I've told you what I think. Unless it was a trick question...

[brownjenkins]

A good example: A male lion who drives away the male in a pride will commonly kill small cubs, because a nursing female will not come into heat. The male lion may only have limited time as the head of the pride, as any time another male may challenge him. If the females do not come into heat, they will not mate with him. By killing the young nursing cubs, the females will go into heat sooner and will accept him to mate with.

this is actually something i was thinking of when i wrote my post... first, lions are all within the same species (i wasn't talking societies)... second, it can be argued that the above condition exists because it is advantageous to the survival of lions as a whole, in evolutionary terms

why is this?... one would assume that the male who drove off the other is stronger, and thus more likely to survive as compared to the one chased away, as a result, his offspring are more likely to survive... so while it may be bad for the lion who got chased away, it is for the betterment of all lionkind...

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You mean "psychologically"?

Yes, I always confuse it with physical.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Valandil, what religion would you classify someone who believes in your god, believes the bible is the word of your god, and believes that Jesus was the son of god (and/or god in human form sent to Earth), yet would not be considered "saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience"?

You didn't ask me, but has that ever stopped me before? ahHAhahahahaha! ahHAhahahah... er, um, sorry

*MUST get post count back up higher than Ruinel's*

Actually, demons fit into that category, acc'd to James 2:19.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ruinel: Hitler is generally considered a Christian, but read this quote:

I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later – once we hold power – Christianity will be overcome and the German Church established. Yes, the German church, without a Pope and without the bible

Do these sound like the words of a Christian to you? Do you know of any atheist who "insisted on the certainty that sooner of later - once they held power - Atheism would be overcome"? Really, what people are considered Christian these days is ridiculous. All it takes is a vague affiliation with some Christian body; you don't really have to believe anything. Even that's not necessarily required.

To finish the quote, "and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing." Somehow, I doubt it. :P Considering his emphasis on sola (his) Scriptura, I doubt he'd give his blessing to any body that was "without the bible."

[Rían]

And with THIS post, I'm one higher than YOU, Ru sweetie! Bwahaha!

Oh, Gwai, BTW, I finally saw your post on saints - I agree with it, except I'd say why not just ask people that you know personally that have died to pray for you, since they know you better? I have no problem praying to saints in general, as long as it's along the lines of "Dear Saint [whoever], I know you were famous for your patience, and I really need some help here. Would you please pray to our God and Father and ask for His help for me?" IOW, as long as it's NOT "Dear Saint [whoever], I know you were famous for your patience, and I really need some help here. Would YOU please help me to be more patient?" The former asks for help from the source of all good help; the latter asks for help from a fellow saint.

*drat! I should have made that a separate post! Would've been TWO up over Ru!*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

One more, Ri.

EDIT: You trickster, you posted before I got this!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And with THIS post, I'm one higher than YOU, Ru sweetie! Bwahaha!
....

*drat! I should have made that a separate post! Would've been TWO up over Ru!*

I didn't know this was a contest... oops. That means we're even again.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian:

I think I might disagree, though I'm not sure; it seems to me that quite likely, considering the greater life of those who have passed on, I'm not sure that those who knew us now would know us better. Also, generally the official "Saints" are those who have very much excelled or in some way had their lives affected in some unique fashion; I think any person in paradise is considered a saint, if not canonized. I sometimes ask for Tolkien's intercession, since he rocks and all. Also, as I've told you, my brother is currently not very interested in religion; he believes in it, but other than that, he has no interest in it. I ask for the intercession of St. Augustine for him, as he was a man who strayed pretty far afield in his youth, but then returned and became one of the greatest theologians of the Church. Now, I haven't known any people in my life who would be as good a "fit" in this case as St. Augustine. But generally, Catholics ask for intercession from A) the Blessed Mary, as she is the spiritual mother of all Christians, and an example of a wondrous Christian, and she was the Theotokos, the one who bore the Incarnate God in her womb, and B) those saints who were well-known for something related to their need, such as Augustine for my brother.
As regards asking them to do something for you: Well, would you ask a friend who has Bios to do something for you? Why not one who is not inhibited by a mortal shell? Our beloved departed are not separated from us; Hebrews (IIRC) describes "a cloud of witnesses" about us. These people are made holy, for as Revelation tells us, "no unclean thing" can enter into Heaven. Does it not make sense that these people would want to help us? Does it not make sense that God might honour them by allowing them to help us? It may be the will of God, for instance, and I think it's not unlikely, that some saint play a direct role in something. St. Therese of Lisieux was healed of a fever by the Blessed Virgin, and at the same time, saw Her with her eyes. Many Christians in the past have been aided by those from before their times; because they are not dead, they are still able to help us. "I am the God of the living, not of the dead." You, me, you children, St. Augustine, St. Francis Xavier, Elizabeth I, John Wesley, and Jonathan Edwards are all (I believe) part of the same Church; some are in the Church pilgrim, some in the Church triumphant; but all in the Church.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You didn't ask me, but has that ever stopped me before? ahHAhahahahaha! ahHAhahahah... er, um, sorry

*MUST get post count back up higher than Ruinel's*

Actually, demons fit into that category, acc'd to James 2:19.

Ok, then I'm asking you now.

So, you consider these people "demons"? Even though they're human? O_o

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok, then I'm asking you now.

So, you consider these people "demons"? Even though they're human? O_o

Even though you're not asking me ... (and to help keep your post count just slightly above Rian's!!! )

I don't think Rian is saying people like that are demons... she's just saying that if even a demon meets those qualifications, then those are not enough to qualify someone to be a Christian.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And with THIS post, I'm one higher than YOU, Ru sweetie! Bwahaha!

Stop it! You're getting too close!

This calls for desperate measures....

*tapes RÃ*an's fingers together*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: As one who is a close friend of Rian's, and has a pretty good understanding of her beliefs, through by side-by-side defense of a shared view and discussion between us of differing views, I would bet every hair on my head that's not what she meant. In fact, if you note, she said "demons fit this category", not "the term is demons."

By the way, I've more posts than the lot o'ya. [d00d-voice]I'm like, the Apostle Paul, only like, the chief of SPAMMERS, dood![/d00d-voice]

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Ruinel: Hitler is generally considered a Christian, but read this quote:


Do these sound like the words of a Christian to you? Do you know of any atheist who "insisted on the certainty that sooner of later - once they held power - Atheism would be overcome"? Really, what people are considered Christian these days is ridiculous. All it takes is a vague affiliation with some Christian body; you don't really have to believe anything. Even that's not necessarily required.

To finish the quote, "and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing." Somehow, I doubt it. :P Considering his emphasis on sola (his) Scriptura, I doubt he'd give his blessing to any body that was "without the bible."

What religion was the "German Church"? If he was asking for "Luther's" blessing (or convinced he would give his blessing) then obviously he is not talking about getting rid of Christianity, but Catholicism. "Luther" is Martin Luther, born Martin Luder in 1483 in Eisleben, Saxon, founder of the Lutheran Church. Which is a Christian religion/sect/whatever broken off from the Catholic Church.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Even though you're not asking me ... (and to help keep your post count just slightly above Rian's!!! )

I don't think Rian is saying people like that are demons... she's just saying that if even a demon meets those qualifications, then those are not enough to qualify someone to be a Christian.

[whisper]yah... thanks. [/whisper]

So, I suppose I'm back to my original question. How do we classify them?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By the way, I've more posts than the lot o'ya. [d00d-voice]I'm like, the Apostle Paul, only like, the chief of SPAMMERS, dood![/d00d-voice]

you are.. by far.. the biggest spammer I know. SPAMMER!!!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Stop it! You're getting too close!

This calls for desperate measures....

*tapes RÃ*an's fingers together*

sdf[pa [r[g[]4koa]r]t]fdi0bhvk

"Oh, kids, could you please come here and help Mommy out?"

*snip, snip*

There!

*eyes Eärniel's post count hungrily....*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok, then I'm asking you now.

So, you consider these people "demons"? Even though they're human? O_o

*thud*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*thud*

come now... answer the question RÃ*an. How do you classify them? Some here refute that these people can call themselves Christian. What do you say, ye of less posts than me?