Theism

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I guess God must exist because this thread is still open, but the anti-theist thread is closed. Hmmm...

*turns to walk away*

Can I just re-iterate that?

Oh the hypocrisy!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


Can I just re-iterate that?

Oh the hypocrisy!

or... !OBLITERATE

where is the eggbeater thingy?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan


or... !OBLITERATE

where is the eggbeater thingy?

Zzzzap!

Okay, it seems God was playing an april fools joke on us, the anti-theist is now OPEN.

[Earenya]

Wow. Where to start with this...

I was raised Protestant (Methodist) but went to a Catholic school for about 10yrs. I learned many sides to the Catholic/Protestant debates from that.

About creation: Scientifically, we have been taught that evolution is a practical, realistic explanation of the order of creation. I believe in evolution. I also believe God was in charge, and created us through the process of evolution.

-I read that even the Pope said as long as God created the first cell, caused the Big Bang, etc etc, evolution is not in conflict with the Church.-

Now, there are discrepincies w/in the Christian faith, whether God created from "nothing" or from "chaos". These are two very very different ideas; chaos would require matter for their to be something to make chaos of, nothing would mean emptiness for their to be something created in. But this leads to the question; is God self generated? Always been?


To end (for the moment, at least) when it comes down to it, we will not find the answer here. To any of these questions. But the world will still turn, and we can still believe, w/out knowing all- for isnt that the role faith takes. If we knew everything, now, we wouldnt have to have faith in anything. And maybe Faith is what we're supposed to strive for.

[markedel]

God is without the physical universe. Creation is God taking his infiniteness and transferring it to the finite. He is independant of creation.

[elf_princess]

Let's see here... I'm a Baptist... have been since birth and I've attended the same church since birth. I believe that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one and yet all three different beings. I believe that when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior they have eternal security that can never be taken away. I also believe that Jesus will come back one day to rapture out the believers... any other Baptists out there?

[Andúril]

Tell me, Markedel, where do you think God is right now?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Anduril
Tell me, Markedel, where do you think God is right now?

Good question, Anduril, if he/she is in fact out side of creation, then what the heck do they use to explain THAT?

[Andúril]

Well, I shall hazard a guess.

God is in Heaven, which is a different universe to our own. He is sitting on his throne, with Jesus Christ sitting on his right (or left, whatever). Since Heaven is a different universe to ours, the presence of God there explains his existence outside of our universe, or outside of "creation" as Markedel puts it.

In the days of the Bible, God intervened here and there, but those days are long past. God now sits in Heaven, watching over the universe, hoping that people might actually believe in him for some or other reason.

There we go. A valid explanation for God's whereabouts.

By the way, Wayfarer, would this not imply that God exists within the time of Heaven? Or does he exist outside of that time as well? Or, better yet, there is no such thing as time in Heaven, right?

[BeardofPants]

Throne, etc implies very much, that God's Heaven is part of a created existence to me...

[markedel]

The best explanation I've heard is this:

God is a like a 3-D finger in a 2-D world. He's there but you can only comprehend a small portion of what he is.It's not that he's not "here" its that "here" has no meaning to him because he is beyond the constraints and definitions of us.

ANd God isn't "watching" he's hidden. Read the book of esther for traditional Judaism's view of "hidden" aspect of God..

[Andúril]

He's there but you can only comprehend a small portion of what he is.

So he's "there", you say?

This implies that a portion of God is inside time, and the rest is outside time. This is so abstract that the only way I can come close to some sort of explanation, is to say that God exists partially in our universe, and partially in Heaven. Looking at the well-known Flatland analogy, God could be made up of eight dimensions, four of which we can perceive, the other four are only percievable in Heaven.

So, in the end, it really does not matter if someone says that God is outside time, or that he created time. This time is the time that we percieve, not the time property in Heaven. It's one or the other - either God's conciousness is operating on Heaven, or in our universe - but the fact remains (loosely stated) that God is operating in time.

Lets look at the state of affairs. The majority of people that I debate with label God as "self-existant" because he exists outside of our universe. This is a narrow point of view, in my opinion. God could live a perfectly coherent 4-dimensional life in Heaven, or stated otherwise, outside of our universe, and then also not be self-existent.

What can we think now? It is logically possible that God could have been created by a super-god, in a super-universe, so that the super-god (lets call it Anduril for now), seemed self-existant to God. This way, an infinite amount of universes and gods could exist.

I must wonder now, is there any way to show that God is definitely and necessarily self-existent?

[Andúril]

All-just and all-merciful.

These are two concepts I would like to persue in another one of those incompatibility arguments.

But before I do, I need at least one person to state that he/she believes that God has these properties - after all, if no-one believes this, then what is the point of discussing it?

[afro-elf]

I think that you should post it anyway.

this way non- theist have better info

[Twilight]

I think that the all-just part is accurate, but I am not so sure about the all merciful. He does show mercy to everybody, but that is differant from being all-merciful.

Romans 9:14 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

In that verce, it says that God gets to choose who he has mercy on. He doesn't automatically have to be merciful to everybody. He chooses to be merciful most of the time, and encourages us to be merciful. That is differant from being all merciful. I wonder what the other theists have to say about this.

[Andúril]

If you say that God chooses to be merciful to some, how can he be considered all-just? Maybe definitions are called for:

All-just: An all-just judge treats every offender with exactly the severity he/she deserves
All-merciful: An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less serverity than he/she deserves.
Merciful: A merciful judge treats some offenders with less severity than they deserve.

So let's formulate the arguments. You have claimed that God is all-just, but you are not sure about the nature of God's mercy. In that case, I will formulate two arguments:

Argument (1):

1) If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge
2) If God exists, then he is an all-just judge
3) An all-merciful judge treats every offender with lessserverity than he/she deserves.
4) An all-just judge treats every offender with exactlythe severity he/she deserves
5) It is impossible to treat an offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves, and also with less severity than he/she deserves.
6) It is impossible for an all-merciful judge to be an all-just judge
7) It is impossible for God to exist.

Argument (2):

1) If God exists, then he is a merciful judge
2) If God exists, then he is an all-just judge
3) A merciful judge treats some offenders with lessserverity than they deserves.
4) An all-just judge treats every offender with exactlythe severity he/she deserves
5) It is impossible to treat all offenders with exactly the severity that they deserve, and also some with less severity than they deserve.
6) It is impossible for a merciful judge to be an all-just judge
7) It is impossible for God to exist.

I look forward to your comments and criticisms...

[Twilight]

I think what I wrote was wrong and I will admit to that. I just gave blood, and was about ready to pass out when I wrote what I did. I don't think it is correct to say that God is all just, for the same reasons that he isn't all merciful. We all deserve death for our sins. It is by grace that we are saved. God is just, but he doesn't give everybody what they deserve. I guess that maybe he could be all just. By the death of Jesus, we can be forgiven and washed white. That way we are blameless in his eyes. Those who believe are forgiven, and they no longer have anything counted against them. All who haven't asked for forgeveness or that haven't been forgived still have their sins counting against them, and the wages of sin is death. They get what they deserve as the consequenses. In that sence God could be all just. I think you could get a better argument from other theists. I think I am going to go lie down now.

[markedel]

You misinterpert justice. Justice is law tempered with mercy. Therefore God is just. He gives law to man, and its primary compenant is mercy.

A good example is capital punishment. According to the Torah you can get executed for any number of things. But in order to get executed two male witnesses have to see you about to do the act, warn you using chapter and verse, and then you have to do the act anyways while they watch. Then if they testify you get executed. Thus if a man walks into a room with a knife, and walks out covered in blood he would not be executed for murder unless the above conditions were fulfilled.

This is law and mercy combined and from that justice.

[Twilight]

Good way of explaining it. Thanks, I was kind of struggling.

[afro-elf]

the reason i don't believe the any sacred text is the same reason i don't believe mother goose

i think the only difference is that myths are just religions that no\one believes in any longer

oops i think i'm in the wrong thread

oh well