07-09-2003, 10:49 AM | #241 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I find it difficult to accept that if abiogenesis could occur once, that it couldn't have occurred numerous times. Yet the most basic cell functions in all living organisms all operate the same way. (DNA, RNA, etc). Is it the nature of the basic organic molecules, the building blocks of life, to only work a certain way (given the operating parameters of the earth's environments)? Quote:
That is where chaos theory comes in. The more complex the system the simpler the mechanism. Perfect uniformity is the least likely scenario in nature. Quote:
Isn't the top defined by where the axis is? Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-09-2003, 12:50 PM | #242 | ||
Elf Lord
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And please note : it is not possible to claim that the resistances evolved in the new bacteria were already existing, because the genetic code of the bacteria is already known- it simply wasn't there before. This directly falsifies the claim you made about beneficial mutations not occuring - this is simply wrong, not true, false, however you want to put it- and has been proven so.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-09-2003, 12:57 PM | #243 | |
Elf Lord
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As for the difference between micro- and macro- what's the difference between a big pile of sand and a small pile? I can make a small pile on the beach, but I've never seen anybody make a big pile, so there must be some different mechanism involved?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-09-2003, 01:10 PM | #244 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 07-09-2003 at 01:11 PM. |
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07-09-2003, 01:11 PM | #245 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Evidence for creationism #1a - the fossil record
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Secondly, even if true, this is evidence AGAINST creationism. According to your theory, along with the nautiloids , trilobites etc, should be modern fish, marine mammals and reptiles and the odd shipwreck, all tossed in together-- none of these occur. And if I may repeat my earlier question, what on earth is an age/zone??? Your whole point is that this is NOT a remnant from a particular age; if you say that you're denying your entire premise. So what is an "age/zone", given that the "age" part of the term must be by your own definiton totally misleading?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-09-2003, 01:16 PM | #246 |
Elven Warrior
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*Hmm, an intelligent discussion. Time to join in!*
Let me start of by saying that I think that both sides (Evolutionist, creationist) are in general too dogmatic. I think both sides should sit down with an open mind and look at the evidence in a logical fashion. To anyone interested in the subject of creation and evolution, the best book I have ever read on the subject is The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder, who has the highest degrees attainable in both physics (from MIT) and in theology. My view of how things happened fits the evidence, as well as the Bible. I believe that the Big Bang happened first. In no way does acknowleging it take anything away from a Supreme Being creating the universe. I then believe that over millions of years, the earth formed, cooled, etc. Now onto the subject of life. I do not believe that each day of creation was twenty four hours. After all, there is that verse in the bible "A minute to God is like a thounsand years, etc." Interestingly, each day of creation in the Bible corresponds to a particular period in prehistory. The first day was the Big Bang and the period in which stars formed, matter coalesced into planets, etc. The first thing to appear was plants, which has been scientifically verified. Animal life first appeared in the water (Gen. 1 :20) which scientists also say (Remeber, if each day was several million years, different sealife could appear over that period). I'm not quite sure about the birds that it mentions in that same verse. After this, land life appeared. Finally, humans appeared.
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The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Last edited by Finmandos12 : 07-09-2003 at 01:19 PM. |
07-09-2003, 01:24 PM | #247 | |
Elf Lord
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Another way of expressing "simplified version of the theory " is to say "incorrect version of the theory" If what you are trying to say is that a uniform explosion should produce an absolutely smooth universe this is indeed a problem. the leading contender for explaining this is the inflation theory of Alan Guth http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level..._contents.html I personally think we've enough to handle dealing with life on Earth on this thread, but if anyone wants to open it up, go ahead
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-09-2003, 01:27 PM | #248 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So Finmandos12- what scientific evidence is there of god? How is introducing god into science - science? God is a belief and nothing more. I'm not saying you're not correct in your beliefs - but when a scientist tries to bring god into scientific theory - it puts the theory in question. God can simply be nature and that will fit the evolutionary model too.
I do not believe there is a "higher power". There may have been aliens or something that created our universe - but a supreme all knowing being just seems like pure fairytale. God can NOT be a part of the equation when trying to do scientific experiments and try to develop theories - since it is a complete unknown.
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07-09-2003, 01:47 PM | #249 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-09-2003, 01:50 PM | #250 |
Elf Lord
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I did it. Pond scum. Snapped my fingers and made monkeys out of all you pond scum.
One of the problems with scientists is that the unknown makes them squirm uncomfortably, and the unknowable makes them fly into a frothing rage.
The (rare) scientific minds I have the most respect for are those who know and are up front about the fact that they are only working with a single piece of the jigsaw puzzle, and make no grand proclamations about what the box cover looks like. Of course... That's why I like agnostics. They have enough sense to now that both atheists and believers have gotten themselves into the silly position of defending something that is unknowable... <Troll mission executed-returning to base>
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
07-09-2003, 02:44 PM | #251 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Nice to hear from you again, Blackheart. Must be old home week
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-09-2003, 02:54 PM | #252 |
Elf Lord
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Who you callin an Old Homey?
Why you young whippersnapper! I'll smack you around with my walkin stick! <Keels over from exhaustion>
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 07-09-2003 at 02:56 PM. |
07-09-2003, 02:58 PM | #253 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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OK...Lazy Lurker?
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07-09-2003, 03:05 PM | #254 |
Elf Lord
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Hey! I roll over every aeon or so...
It's just that it's such a hassle to get a large number of slaves together and sacrifice them all at once....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
07-09-2003, 03:23 PM | #255 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I certainly hope none of you have the GALL to accuse me of quote-mining here! I'm not saying Sheeana believes in creationism, okay! I just think that her opinion was important in this area, esp. since she has run around with some people in the field! (um, in the platonic sense, of course! ) And it seemed to confirm what I had already read.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-09-2003 at 03:27 PM. |
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07-09-2003, 03:45 PM | #256 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What about my typing analogy? I started at 15 wpm and am now at 90 or so ... should I expect to be able to reach 1000 wpm or more? If there are no bounds, why don't I reach 100,000 wpm or 1,000,000,000 wpm? Change has bounds! I will reach my physical bound first, then if I could somehow magically remove my physical bound in this area, I would reach a computer bound. It is both LOGICAL and OBSERVABLE that change has bounds! Breeders try to bring out different traits in the animals they work with. They are successful, but only up to a certain point - there is a natural stopping point that is always hit. And dogs remain dogs - cows remain cows - etc. and etc. There was an example about bristled flies somewhere - sorry I can't find the reference offhand, I have too many books in front of me - but a scientist was trying to reduce the number of bristles. He was successful ... to a point! then there was no more progress. This is observable over and over and over. There is always a physical bound reached in breeding. And that is not even touching the topic of the reduction of information and the typically reduced viability that takes place with this kind of breeding! GM, do you really and sincerely believe that man and say, a fish, have a common, single-celled ancestor? Do you really believe that? (I'll try to get to more of your points later, but I also want to get to some of Cirdans, and some of JD, and on and on .... )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-09-2003 at 03:47 PM. |
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07-09-2003, 04:05 PM | #257 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-09-2003, 04:51 PM | #258 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I must have missed the post where Cirdan discussed the typing analogy. But are you saying that macro evolution isn't PHYSICAL? My whole point is that PHYSICAL changes have PHYSICAL limitations, and they are easily and repeatably observable - ask any breeder.
I think it is a great analogy that demonstrates that change has bounds. I'll do a quick search for Cirdan's posts with "typing", tho.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-09-2003, 04:59 PM | #259 | |
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07-09-2003, 05:30 PM | #260 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Maybe I missed your clarification, Sheeana - that's why I asked - but in the part of my post that you quoted in my first referenced link (is that as clear as mud? ) - I used the term "evolutionists", and in your answer, you didn't narrow it down to anthropologists, you just used "we". And since I know you to be an evolutionist, I assumed "we" referred back to my use of evolutionist.
Do you think evolutionists in general are still looking for transitionals in the fossil record, to your knowledge? And re your "because the whole hominid record is considered transitional" - altho I have some logical objections to that statement, I'll let it go because of lack of time, and because I'd rather address a bigger question - do you think the entire fossil record should be considered the same way? I.e., should the entire fossil record be considered transitional? If so, why? (this question open to others, too)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |