02-05-2009, 06:28 PM | #241 |
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Hello!!! I've been thinking of you lately and wondering if you'd ever post again! So nice to see you - how are you?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-05-2009, 09:42 PM | #242 | ||||||
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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"Israel will push forward with its offensive in the Gaza Strip until it "completely destroys" Hamas, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Gabriela Shalev, said Monday, saying that the operation will continue as long as necessary to reach that goal." Quote:
The Israeli government knew perfectly well what would happen when they enforced a nearly 6-month long blockade on Gaza. Along with several incursions into Gaza to take out high-level Hamas leaders during the cease-fire, the Isreali army actually built a mini-version of Gaza City in the desert: The invasion of Gaza had been planned for many months in advance. Quote:
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02-07-2009, 08:18 PM | #243 | |
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02-07-2009, 10:12 PM | #244 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Evenig!
Yeah well it s a bit more complicated than that. This is why.
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02-07-2009, 10:22 PM | #245 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Okay i need to copy a table forst before I can answer you=)
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02-08-2009, 12:00 AM | #246 |
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I think it's time to dispel the misconception that the conflict between Hamas and Israel, officially beginning on the 27th of December 2008, somehow was a clean-cut result of unprovoked Hamas rocket and mortar attacks into Israel.
It is wrong, it is non-factual, to claim that Israel's invasion of Gaza was an act of self-defence in which the Israelis were left no alternative but violent conflict. The point of my post is to show that Hamas did not act in some uncontrollable, provoking manner throughout the ceasefire, but was on the other hand for once more interested in keeping its part of the agreement. The Israelis have every right to act in self-defence. But the latest conflict was, and I can't express this clearly enough!, not inevitable. But before I lay out why I argue this, I will spell it out again, to make it (Monty Python voice) absolutely clear!: I don't have a microscopical, not even sub-atomic, shred of sympathy or tolerance for the type of warfare Hamas engages in when it sends rockets towards civilian areas. On the whole they're actions are contradictory and self-defeating. That said, Hamas is also a political organisation, democratically (yes, really, democratically) elected by the Palestinian civilian population of Gaza and therefore it's as impossible, as self-deluding, as fruitless for the world and for Israel to somehow ignore them and shun them from any peace process. Hamas has shown in the past, albeit very seldomly, that it is interested in becoming a part of the solution and not the problem. A wise actionby all parties interested in a peace negotiation would then be to give not just stick, but carrot. Or put otherwise: Armed conflict won't solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. So, let's look at what exactly did happen from the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas went into effect on the 19th of June 2008 until the outbreak of a full-scale invasion of Israel on the 27th of December at the end of the year. Last month a summary-type report was issued by the Israel Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center detailing the number of rockets and mortars that flew into southern Israel in the course of 2008. Here's the report: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...f/ipc_e007.pdf, which consists of mostly raw data. From the onset of the cease-fire on June 19th the agreement between Israel and Hamas was of course that no hostilities would take place. There would be no provocating shooting, no maiming, no killing. Hamas would cease it's rocket barrages, Israel would cease killing Hamas militants, and the Israelis were to loosen the blockade that they had enforced around the entire Gaza Strip. The cease-fire, coming in effect on 6 AM Israeli-Palestinian local time on the 19th of June, was reported on by the BBC, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7462554.stm. Here are some highlights from the article that I've taken the liberty to quote Hamas: "Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group which controls Gaza, said it was confident all militants would abide by the Egypt-brokered truce, which is supposed to last six months." "Hamas's leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, said the truce would "bring stability to Israel if they commit themselves to it"." Israel: "Speaking on Wednesday, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the truce would be fragile and could be short-lived. He said Israel would abide by the ceasefire, but its armed forces were ready to act if cross-border rocket attacks continued." "Israelis in the south of the country will appreciate the relief from daily missile fire, says the BBC's Tim Franks in Jerusalem, but many fear that a ceasefire could give Hamas the chance to rearm and strengthen itself further" "Under the terms of the new agreement, Israel will ease restrictions on the trade of certain goods between Gaza and Israel on Friday morning, and open up the crossings for all commercial goods next week." Let's move now to the 27th of June, a little over a week after the ceasefire was agreed. Hamas has in this period not fired rockets into Israel, but the militant wing of Fatah, the The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, went ahead and did so. Published in YNet News.com, an Israeli online newspaper, was a condemnation by the Hamas Prime Minister. Here is the article in it's full length: http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...561133,00.html; "Hamas wants quiet in Gaza: Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel. "The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement," he said following Friday prayers. Earlier Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire. On Thursday, a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel exploded near a gas station in an open area in Sderot's industrial zone. There were no injuries. The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Fatah's military wing, claimed responsibility for firing that rocket. Sources in Gaza estimated that the incident was aimed at embarrassing Hamas and harming the efforts to maintain the truce with Israel. Following the attack, a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic." He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel." Carrying into August, September and October, the trend was unequivocal, Hamas did not fire rockets or mortars into southern Israel. It respected the ceasefire, but was unable to keep radical parts of the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade and Islamic Jihad from carrying out attacks. Yet they too were few and far-between. Looking at the report issued just last month in Israel, the numbers speak for themselves. Here I've cut out the raw data for period before the ceasefire was signed, during the period when the ceasefire was meant to be in place, and after, when the Israelis invaded Gaza. During this period there were virtually no rocket attacks. Apart from the rare rocket fired, 11 in total, in the months July, August, September and October, there was an end to hostilities by Hamas and as the Israeli media reported, the Israeli civilian towns clustered in the area surrounding the Gaza Strip hadn't experienced such peace in years. Now, during the period the agreement between the two sides was that Israel lift its trade blockade. On the 19th of August, two months after the ceasefire had been agreed, the BBC reports that the blockade is still in place and barely altered save for an increase in a few basic neccessities, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7570605.stm. As the BBC pointed out back then there was a real risk of the ceasefire being spoilt. As the months went by the number of trucks that entered Gaza from the Egyptian border went from about 70 to about 90 trucks a day. The actual number of trucks that Gaza could take in each day is closer to 400. Israel in this period did next to nothing in alleviating the sense of isolation that the Gazans felt and one can just wonder what Hamas was thinking. But for once Hamas has seemed to have kept its cool and acted relatively intelligently. They did not fire rockets or mortars and bar the ones that were fired by other parties, which Hamas were unable to stop, they actually kept their part of the agreement. The ceasefire carried into November, and that's when things began falling apart. Accusing Hamas of digging a tunnel for the intent of kidnapping Israeli soldiers, which Hamas maintains was for defensive purposes and not offensive, the Israelis go into Gaza on the 4th of November and kill 6 Hamas soldiers. While the ceasefire wasn't shattered by that Hamas responded by firing 30 or so Qassam rockets into Israel. During this period, between November and the mid of December both sides began hostilities again, yet a few days before the ceasefire was to officially end Hamas offered to continue the ceasefire. Guess who refused and went ahead with a long planned invasion instead. I'm not going to write more on this post or I'll never get my sleep, but the Israeli government and military establishment needs to do a very serious make-over of how it deals with Gaza. It seems they know all the tactics of war, but none for peace, and that has got to change.
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02-09-2009, 12:10 AM | #247 |
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CH, send it to the UN to correlate with HAMAS using children as human shields...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull wonderful government, that!
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02-09-2009, 05:57 AM | #248 | ||
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From the report:
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She also said this, which somehow didn't get into the Jpost article: Quote:
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02-09-2009, 07:24 PM | #249 |
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Bar the mis-rule of Hamas it is clear that elections in Israel tommorrow won't yield any actual change in policy towards the Palestinians. Kadima the centrist party is on the heels of Likud, the largest right-wing party (though they are in reality both right-wing). http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...lls/index.html
What has really surprised me today though is finding out the hypocrisy of Likud, the largest party in the Knesset (the Israeli parliament). It does not recognize the right of a Palestinian independent state. That is disturbing!!! The things they write on their party platform verges on fascism. http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/...5/elikud_m.htm. I hope anyone in Entmoot who somehow does not understand the lack of unquestioning favour Israel has in the world reads this and thinks real hard about it: Under the section Self-Rule the following is declared by the Likud party charter: "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs." It is then a ridiculous hypocrisy to bring out a charter of Hamas and not do the same thing about Likud. (Hamas, which by the way has not included it's rejection of Israel's right to exist in their Government platform)
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02-10-2009, 05:12 AM | #250 |
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That was Likud's platform for the 1999 elections. Although much of the policies are surely still supported by Likud today, the political program probably looks different for these new elections.
Coffeehouse, not to be mean or anything but I can't seem to understand what is the hypocrisy here exactly. Could you explain further? And what's so surprising with the fact that a far-right party like Likud rejects the establishment of a Palestinian state?
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02-10-2009, 09:27 AM | #251 | |
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It doesn't come off as mean Jonathan, no worries, questions are good The hypocrisy is this: The Palestinians must be scratching their heads and think: "Wait a minute. It's not okay that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, but it's perfectly alright that Likud does not recognize a Palestinian state to exist? " Now it is both surprising and troubling that Likud, Israel's largest party, believes that the people Israeli is in conflict in do not have a right to form their own country. The bottom-line is that it's hypocritical by us in the West to set one standard for the Palestinians and one for Israel. You can't tell Hamas to do this and that politically if the other side are happily refusing to acknowledge Hamas, acknowledge a Palestinian state to exist and the right of return of refugees. If the conflict is going to be solved there needs to be consistency, one standard for all.
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02-10-2009, 09:40 AM | #252 |
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Much clearer now, thank you
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02-10-2009, 09:48 AM | #253 |
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(nerdanel, who mostly just reads this thread, says:
well put, coffehouse. )
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02-10-2009, 10:03 AM | #254 |
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The right of return? It'll NEVER happen.
The house I grew up in is less than a mile from here. I pass it on walks. I'd love to live in it, but someone ELSE lives there now. And if my town, or anyone else, decided to give it to me, the current owner would resist. A separate Palestinian state...maybe, if everyone works REALLY hard. Right of return? NEVER.
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02-10-2009, 11:08 AM | #255 |
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Gee, how many times does Hamas have to steal aid from the UN and not give it to the Palestinians for which it was intended to have it be Israel's fault?
How many times do they have to cover the launch of rockets by their uncontrollable insurgents from hospitals, schools, and UN compounds so as to maximize the death of their peoples in the response? One wonders at the levels of credulity maintained by some folks in only one direction as far as I can tell.
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02-10-2009, 02:46 PM | #256 | |
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02-10-2009, 03:02 PM | #257 | ||
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The point was that when Western nations lecture Palestinians and Hamas about their political statements, such as the pre-2007 charter stating that Israel did not have the right to exist, they can't simultaneously ignore similar statements by Likud, denying the right for a Palestianian state to exist. What credibility does that leave any peace-broker when different standards are set?
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02-10-2009, 04:46 PM | #258 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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02-10-2009, 07:45 PM | #259 | |
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http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...lls/index.html It seems some (relatively) good news is coming from the Israeli election. The centrist-party Kadima is leading in the exit polls, and in the votes, and although I was opting for Ehud Barak's moderate Labour, it's still a whole lot better than Netanyahu's Likud party winning. Sadly Labour seems to be doing its worst election, potentially coming fourth, behind 3rd-placed Yisrael Beiteinu, an ultra-right wing party lead by Avigdor Lieberman. Israel definitely is going far right in this election.
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02-11-2009, 01:16 PM | #260 | |
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Of course now this is subject to change, especially if Netanyahu is asked to form a government.
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