UK Politics

[Nurvingiel]

The benefit for taking your car into downtown London has to outweigh what you pay in terms of time, maintenance to your car, hassle, etc. A toll increases this cost, meaning for more people the cost will outweigh the benefit of driving downtown, and they'll take the train or bus instead.
This can apply to driving anywhere, with different costs and benefits. Personally I think the same should be done in Vancouver, where the bus/train system is good enough to accomodate the increased demand. The toll would go to improving the transit system. This has already happened to a certain degree with a bus pass being included in our student fees at UBC (University of British Columbia). Ridership increased significantly on common student routes, much more than expected.
People get used to a new toll in the sense that they stop complaining about it, but if they still keep driving, that just means that the benefit of driving still outweighs the costs including the toll.

[Draken]

I'm sure we will. And when we do, it will be based on facts gained from a real experiment. Sitting around debating every what if and maybe just produces a lot of hot air, it takes someone to actually try something out to truly inform the debate. Which, much as I hate to heap any praise on Landahners, is what they've been bold enough to try.

Whatever the long term impact, at least there will be some data to inform other cities - rather than just opinion.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The benefit for taking your car into downtown London has to outweigh what you pay in terms of time, maintenance to your car, hassle, etc. A toll increases this cost, meaning for more people the cost will outweigh the benefit of driving downtown, and they'll take the train or bus instead.
This can apply to driving anywhere, with different costs and benefits.

Have you been to NY? When I was in London it seemed like traffic was nothing compared to trying to maneuver through NY (and I was there on a weekday and walked from Lancaster Gate all the way to the Thames and went to see parliament). So to say that the fact that the cost will be added onto the wear and tear of the car and people will therefore in the long run chnage their habits makes no sense. Once people get used to paying - it may take 5 years or so - peopel will just treat it as another of life's inconviences.

People get used to a new toll in the sense that they stop complaining about it, but if they still keep driving, that just means that the benefit of driving still outweighs the costs including the toll.

NJ has tons of busing, trains and ferries into NY - people still insist on driving into the city. Hell - it even costs a huge amount to just park your car there - but people still do it. I don't - not because of the cost - but because I see no sense to. I can get the train from Princeton Junction - get off at Penn Station at 38th street (takes about an hour) and either walk or take the subway anywhere I wish to go. I also take the ferries over sometimes too.

[The Gaffer]

IMO it has worked very well: there is noticeably less traffic inside the charging zone (I travel there a couple of times a month), which means that buses, bikes and taxis get around quicker. Friends who cycle in London (not me as I value my life too much) tell me that it's made their lives much more pleasant.

The GLA should take a lot of credit for a courageous move. The charge is limited to peak hours, so it encourages flexible working. It's been accompanied by a huge increase in people using the buses in London (while bus journeys have declined elsewhere).

One thing, though: it coincided with the Central Line underground going offline after a crash (which carries around 600k passengers per day), so maybe that forced people onto buses.

Bizarrely, I head a rumour that City brokers were swapping their 4x4s for minibuses so that they could commute and be exempt.

[Janny]

I agree with the congestion charge and I think it's worked quite well. I'm not too sure about the application of the word 'genius' to ol' Kenny though...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i like ken, and i like the congestion charge

[Janny]

No, I don't grudge you that. I just think, of all the people to whom one could apply that term, I would pick an Einstein or a Hawking or someone not a physicist, but not really Ken.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Janny

I agree with the congestion charge and I think it's worked quite well.

As I said - we'll see how it's working after people get used to having to pay to drive through London.

All the bridges and tunnels into and out of Manhattan are tolls (except for brookyn bridge I think isn't a toll bridge). Also - regardless of what type of vehicle you drive - even buses must pay a toll (although their's is cheaper). I found a site with the toll charges - with e-z pass a car entering manhattan off peak is $4 - on peak it's $5 and if you pay cash then it's $6 regardless of the time. There is also a carpool rate of only $1 and this requires enrollment and having 3 or more persons in the car. These prices affect the following....

Lincoln Tunnel
Holland Tunnel
George Washington Bridge
Goethals Bridge
Outbridge Crossing
Bayonne Bridge

for more information on the tolls - you can look at the Port Authority website - Toll Rates (PDF)

All these are entrances from NJ to NY.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Janny

No, I don't grudge you that. I just think, of all the people to whom one could apply that term, I would pick an Einstein or a Hawking or someone not a physicist, but not really Ken.

political genius, then?!
up there with Che Guevara and Me!

[sun-star]

Don't get Janny started on Che Guevara...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Don't get Janny started on Che Guevara...

ooh, why?

one of my heroes, is Che!

Talking like Yoda, why am I?

[sun-star]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4227921.stm

I know Kilroy-Silk's a joke and everything, but doesn't it make you feel all warm and fuzzy about democracy and pluralism?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by sun-star

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4227921.stm

I know Kilroy-Silk's a joke and everything, but doesn't it make you feel all warm and fuzzy about democracy and pluralism?

How does he feel toward America and stuff? Aslo- how strong is the anti-EU feeling in Britain? I know that the anti-EU party had made a relatively strong showing in the elections - but we don't hear much about the internal politics of Britain. I do sometimes catch the "Questions to the Prime Minister" on C-SPAN - but that mostly just deals with Blair answering loud shouts from the British Parliament. (soprry - i think it's sort of funny when the peopel stand and sit when they agree with something some said )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

whats his new party called again? Veritas? makes you laugh

BTW, JD, the people that stand at the end of an answer are waiting to be acknowledged by the speaker, as they have a question or point to raise

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

How does he feel toward America and stuff?

I'm not sure he's got that far in thinking up policies... As a general thing, most people who are anti-EU are pro-America - though the two things aren't really related.

Aslo- how strong is the anti-EU feeling in Britain? I know that the anti-EU party had made a relatively strong showing in the elections

Relatively is the right word! At the EU elections, where the electorate were voting on EU issues, UKIP got 16% of the vote (higher than the Lib Dems), but at the last general election they only got 1.5%. They don't hold a single local council or Parliamentary seat. Now that Kilroy-Silk has split the party and set up this new one I think their moment in the spotlight is over.

However, anti-EU feeling is quite strong in Britain, certainly compared to other European countries - so that for example, about 60% are still opposed to joining the single currency. Around 30% are opposed to the Constitution (the European average is 16%). The history of Britain's relationship with the EU has always progressed by a series of single issues - whether we should adopt free movement of labour, Maastricht, the Euro, Nice, the Constitution... The argument is always the same, and people have been generally opposed to these things and warned that the EU's going to take over. But then they happen anyway and the world doesn't end.

The EU is one of those issues where the political parties don't really reflect the popular opinion - no political parties are strongly opposed to the EU (though the Tories say they would 'roll back' our membership a little bit if they were in power). Hence, in my opinion, the attention given to UKIP.

[The Gaffer]

Election fever is coming on, or at least, the pundits are desperate for us to believe it's coming on, so what do y'all think?

What are the key issues going to be? Is there any point in voting Lib Dem? Who will be the Official Monster Raving Loony Party candidate in Sedgefield?

Do people really care as much about immigration as the politicians seem to think we do? Is anyone else disgusted about the Daily Mail setting the political agenda?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

politicians care about immigration, the only members of the public who do read the telegraph or the mail

i wonder if the LCA will put up a candidate in bridgwater, might tempt me into voting for someone, then!!

[Janny]

I'd rather The Mail set the political agenda than The Guardi... actually, you're right.

What do you think of the proposed (and scrapped) Labour election posters? Especially now it is clear Alistar Campbell had a personal hand in it. (He responded to the Beeb's interview request with the words: 'F**k off and cover something important, you t**ts'. He claimed it was an email meant for someone else. Well, that's okay then )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

hey! i read the guardian

anything alistair campbell has a hand in should be scrapped before even being thought of

[Nurvingiel]

Is now a good time to listen to Monty Python's Election Special?

Well here at Luton it's a three-cornered contest between, from left to right, Alan Jones (Sensible Party), Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-lim-bim-bim-bim-bim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel (Silly Party), and Kevin Phillips-Bong, who is running on the Slightly Silly ticket.

A little pink pussy-cat has taken Barrow-in-Furness -- that's a gain from the Liberals there. Rastus Odinga Odinga has taken Wolverhampton Southwest, that's Enoch Powell's old constituency -- an important gain there for Darkie Power.

Maybe that second quote will make a little more sense to you guys. Recently I learned that Sir Alec Douglas Hume (who takes Oldham for the Stone Dead party in this) was the Prime Minister in (um...) the 1960s (?).