11-20-2002, 05:09 PM | #241 |
Elf Lord
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I just thought of another example of how evil can rebound to good. You know when the Noldor left in a rebellious act, Ilúvatar didn't make Morgoth punish them. The entire episode was all governed by free will, but when you look at it from a farther away perspective, you can see that all of it also was designed to bring the Noldor back to Ilúvatar.
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11-20-2002, 05:38 PM | #242 | |||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Of course I remember. I'm Cirdan
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-20-2002 at 05:43 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 05:47 PM | #243 |
Elven Warrior
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"He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design"
thats incorrect. he said that morgoth could create no tune that did not have its uttermost source in eru. "However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil. " illuvatar did create evil, he created everything. evil did not just happen, it was displayed through melkor in the music, and that music has its utmost source in eru. so evil can be traced back to eru. "The Noldor betrayed him, and Ilúvatar permitted them to go against him, but punished them by permitting Morgoth to work his evil against him." if they are permitted, the wheres the free will? "None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil " it shows cirdan's view, and he's entitled to that. just as you are entitled to yours. since everyone likes to quote scripture, i've got a couple of my favs to share. God good to all, or just a few? PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-20-2002, 06:00 PM | #244 | |
The Insufferable
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11-20-2002, 06:01 PM | #245 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-20-2002 at 06:09 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 06:03 PM | #246 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Guess I better start peeing sitting down.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-20-2002, 07:21 PM | #247 |
Elven Warrior
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lol
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-20-2002, 07:25 PM | #248 |
The Insufferable
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Oops! Had you confuse with BoP there.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-20-2002, 07:46 PM | #249 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I posted with someone for the longest time who had a male LoTR name for her Entmoot name AND an avatar of a male character, and she turned out to be female My Entmoot name is the name of a lady in the Sil (as I am female ), but it's not too well known, and actually looks rather like Ryan, a male name - I wonder how many people think I'm a man? (my amazing command of logic would make people tend to think that I'm male )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-20-2002, 09:08 PM | #250 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-20-2002, 09:16 PM | #251 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I did a bit, but many pics were links that were no longer there. The ones that WERE there were fun, though!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-21-2002, 12:11 AM | #252 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-21-2002, 01:51 AM | #253 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Ilúvatar didn't have to create evil, for consider this: How did Ilúvatar himself come to be? Did he create himself? By human standpoint, it doesn't make sense. He always was, because he exists outside of time. It's a dimension where things don't have to be made to exist; they simply are. Ilúvatar's character being good, I don't think he is evil in any way, or is responsible for evil. All that he is responsible for is giving us the free will that he gave us. But it is our choice what to do with the free will, so that responsibility doesn't have to fall on his shoulders either. Quote:
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Here I'm sure we get into questions of acts of mass destruction that the Lord commits throughout the Bible. He hates sin, and he hates it completely. Throughout the Bible, he's destroying it. At first, during the Old Testament and part of the New, he acts with the sword. Later on, in the New Testament, he lets his own son die that sin might be destroyed in people's lives. If you point out people that were innocent, yet were killed (Such as Job's children, for example), this doesn't have to be a contradiction either. What happens after death is in God's hands, and since he is just, he will do what's right with them after death. If you want to contest whether or not God can be just while committing mass killings, you might want to make a thread on it in General Messages. I think it's too totally off topic for this discussion. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-21-2002 at 02:08 AM. |
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11-21-2002, 10:48 AM | #254 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-21-2002, 12:52 PM | #255 | |
Elf Lord
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No, certainly not! Religion . . . in this discussion? What an idea!
Oh, some of you might be interested in what I found when looking through the Valaquenta today. This passage is about Melkor, and is a good verification, I think, of my theory that it was through pride and envy that he fell into evil. Quote:
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-21-2002 at 05:39 PM. |
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11-21-2002, 02:06 PM | #256 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-21-2002, 02:34 PM | #257 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Religion! *gasp*
Oh, BTW, here's another Letters quote for you ... Wait! why is everyone running away?? oh well ... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-21-2002, 02:38 PM | #258 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And re your Bible quotes, MM - do you want some of us to take a quick cut at a response, or should we start a new thread, like Lief suggested, because it is rather a new (and would be long and complicated!) topic.
And did you see my post about reading "The Problem of Pain"? I'll quote a quick bit that I think is good: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-21-2002 at 02:39 PM. |
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11-21-2002, 04:25 PM | #259 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-21-2002 at 04:27 PM. |
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11-21-2002, 05:59 PM | #260 | ||||
The Insufferable
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I think that the very traits which made morgoth so terrible-the desire to create and dominate-were the corruption of those traits which would have been the most useful for good. Quote:
Or, to look at it another way: Is it better that the universe be peopled with perfect automatons who do everything correctly, Or living beings that sometimes screw up? I think the answer is obvious. It is better that all choose or reject goodness of their own free will, than that it be forced on them. We would hope that everyone would choose good, but if even one chooses good, it is better that the choice be given. Quote:
The definition I cited earlier ('deviation from will of the Supreme Being') makes it impossible for Eru to commit evil. I don't like to argue by definition, but I really can't see any other way to make it clear. I do believe that, in creating self-willed individuals who can deviate from his will, he creates the possibility of evil. So 'did eru make melkor evil?' The answer is no. He created melkor with exclusively positive attributes, and one of these, free will, contains the possibility to do evil. But Manwe and Varda likewise had free will, and they choose to do good.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 11-21-2002 at 06:04 PM. |
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