LOTR = Typical Action Films?

[Black Breathalizer]

I've watched the documentaries and listened to the writers' commentary track and I didn't hear anything that led me to believe Jackson wasn't initimately familiar with the story. The only comment that I found curious was by Fran Walsh, not Peter Jackson. At one point she asks on the commentary, "Who many books were in the Two Towers?" and Peter responds, "There were two in all three novels."

What I find absolutely amazing from watching the documentaries is how in the world Peter Jackson could have remembered even A FRACTION of the stuff he had to be directly involved with. As producer, production design-approver, writer, editor, and director, he was involved in EVERYTHING on a shoot lasting 280 days, lasting eight years, and covering three major films. Give the guy his due.

[Root16]

Amen to that.

[hectorberlioz]

this was posted by BB at the "theory" thread.
I found it very interesting too.
[QUOTE]It has been analyzed to death in other threads here, but I would briefly like to counterpoint your concerns with the Flight to the Ford scene from the film. From the film maker's perspective, it served many purposes:[QUOTE]
Ok.

1. Introduced Arwen to the audience and explained her relationship to Aragorn.

-arwen never was a amin character in the first place. jackson did it so crazy feminists wouldnt kill him.

2. Provided a visual explanation for the flood.

would have been more fascinating if the audience didnt know what happenened first.

3. Perhaps provided a more convincing scenario to a non-Tolkien audience than having a near-death halfing ride a large horse to the ford by himself.

Frodo is a hero. Frodo is the ultimate hero.
if the book illiterate audience cant understand this, too bad.

4. Gave the audience an understanding of Arwen's strong sense of faith (hope) early in the series.

no, turns arwen into xena.

5. Provided the movie a strong visual (Arwen & Frodo chased by the Nine).

yeah, true.

6. Provided a nice bookend to Eowyn's heroism in ROTK.

I dont see it.

7. A display of courage at the ford by Frodo may have lessened the emotional impact of Frodo's decision at the end of the film to go on to Mordor alone for the non-Tolkien audience.

:rollseyes:. the book illiterate audience should be smart enough to understand..., just dont see your point here...

Frankly, if the Flight to the Ford scene is the worst Jackson "trangression" in this film series, then I will be a very happy camper.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

hector: May I recommend you use Europe? That's the area that it was intended to be in, after all. In fact, there is a specific valley (someone posted this on Entmoot a long time ago), that was the inspiration for Rivendell, where Tolkien went as a boy.

3. Perhaps provided a more convincing scenario to a non-Tolkien audience than having a near-death halfing ride a large horse to the ford by himself.

He didn't "ride a large horse". The horse carried him. This was made clear with very little dialogue in the book, and could have been in the movie, as well.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz

-arwen never was a amin character in the first place. jackson did it so crazy feminists wouldnt kill him.

Does Jackson say this, or is he just joking when he says it? Because it is a poor reason. I know there are worse things done in films than leaving out a certain female character. Personally I don't mind Arwen's role being increased in the films, just like Rosie's role is, but I don't like her taking away the best lines in the book and the courage Frodo shows at the Ford.

[dawningoftime]

I think that Arwen's increased role is more is important because it makes the movie flow better rather then having her show up at the end of the third movie. The book as it is written does not flow well enough to translate it it cinema without making changes. There are some changes that have to be made. If there is anyone who is in film and can do a better job than Peter Jackson I would really like to see it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by dawningoftime
I think that Arwen's increased role is more is important because it makes the movie flow better rather then having her show up at the end of the third movie. The book as it is written does not flow well enough to translate it it cinema without making changes. There are some changes that have to be made. If there is anyone who is in film and can do a better job than Peter Jackson I would really like to see it.

There were still no excuse for her overly expanded role in the Flight to the Ford scene.

BB - based on your posts - you must be one of those movie goers who Jackson had to dumb down the movie for.

[zinnite]

Originally posted by dawningoftime
I think that Arwen's increased role is more is important because it makes the movie flow better rather then having her show up at the end of the third movie. The book as it is written does not flow well enough to translate it it cinema without making changes. There are some changes that have to be made. If there is anyone who is in film and can do a better job than Peter Jackson I would really like to see it.

Well, she didn't just "show up" at the end of ROTK--she was at Rivendell.
And the Aragorn-Arwen moments in the films are fine (if not a bit repetitive); I personally wish that story had been more fleshed out in the book rather than added as a footnote. I even think her substitution for Glorfindel is fine, but she shouldn't have taken Frodo to the Ford. It was unnecessary and pointless. Frodo should have been alone.

The point is not that somebody else could have done a better job, it is that Jackson himself could have and should have done a better job.

[GrayMouser]

Have to disagree on the "Flight to the Ford " sequence- I think the half-conscious hobbit on the elven horse out-running the Black Riders would have looked far worse.

The scene I did hate was Sam at Rivendell whining to go home- I wrote him off him till his very last line in FotR.

And PJ's scene at Weathertop was an improvement- can you imagine half-size hobbits waving torches chasing away Black Riders?

It would have made them a joke thereafter.

"Oooh, here comes a Black Rider! Pass me a Bic."

[squinteyedsoutherner]

How about this:

The hobbits and Aragorn are all seated in a circle each with their back to a small fire. Aragorn has warned them that an attack tonight is likely. They sit and wait as the tension mounts. At first they only feel the presence of something. Then suddenly a faint shape appears against the darkness, visible because it is even darker than the background. It slowly moves forward and becomes slightly clearer as more faint shapes appear behind the first. They hear sniffing and hissing in the dark, the shapes are still barely visible. Terror sets in, Merry and Pippin can no longer move. Suddenly Frodo disappears. Then a barely visible black shape rushes by the group. Frodo screams from somewhere distant. Before Aragorn has a chance to get a burning branch from the fire, the shapes are gone, and the feeling of paralyzing terror has subsided. Frodo is found lying on the ground moments later with a serious wound that will most likely pull him into the wraithworld if help does not come immediately, yet they are still alone in the wild, and the wraiths are still somewhere out there.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
The hobbits and Aragorn are all seated in a circle each with their back to a small fire. Aragorn has warned them that an attack tonight is likely. They sit and wait as the tension mounts. At first they only feel the presence of something. Then suddenly a faint shape appears against the darkness, visible because it is even darker than the background. It slowly moves forward and becomes slightly clearer as more faint shapes appear behind the first. They hear sniffing and hissing in the dark, the shapes are still barely visible. Terror sets in, Merry and Pippin can no longer move. Suddenly Frodo disappears. Then a barely visible black shape rushes by the group. Frodo screams from somewhere distant. Before Aragorn has a chance to get a burning branch from the fire, the shapes are gone, and the feeling of paralyzing terror has subsided. Frodo is found lying on the ground moments later with a serious wound that will most likely pull him into the wraithworld if help does not come immediately, yet they are still alone in the wild, and the wraiths are still somewhere out there.

The huge problem your scenario creates is that the film audience is left wondering, "why the hell did Frodo put on the ring??!?!?!?!" followed immediately by, "how the heck did those black riders find Frodo and stab him when he was invisible?!?!?!?"

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Frodo puts on the ring for the same reason he tries to in Osgiliath and under the tree, Because he feels compelled to whenever the wraiths are near, that is easy to set up and from the book. Frodo enters the wraithworld whenever he puts on the ring, that is how they see him, that is why they keep trying to get him to put the ring on. Again easy to set up, in fact Gandalf has already told him not to wear it because he will draw the enemy to him.

I’ll take that over burned ringwraiths that return with unburnt robes the next day.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Frodo enters the wraithworld whenever he puts on the ring, that is how they see him.

The Black Riders see Frodo in wraithworld? Pray tell, how does the audience know this unless you SHOW them as Jackson did? Until Weathertop, the audience had no clue the black riders could see Frodo when he had the ring on. Gandalf's warning would be the furtherest thing from the audience's mind.

As you're discovering, this filmmaking business isn't as easy as you might have first suspected.

[hectorberlioz]

The Black Riders see Frodo in wraithworld? Pray tell, how does the audience know this unless you SHOW them as Jackson did? Until Weathertop, the audience had no clue the black riders could see Frodo when he had the ring on. Gandalf's warning would be the furtherest thing from the audience's mind.

So this is where things get messed up.
the audience is spoon-fed that frodo is seen by the wraiths in the wraithworld. instead of letting the audience figure it out for themselves-when they finally realize gandalfs warning.
i totally think squinteyedsoutherner's scene would have worked better.
Jackson thinks its Important to change things to make things clearer to the audience-as opposed to- Jackson thinks it important to make his movie as far close to the book as possible.
the latter would have been better despite the audiences confusion.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

BB you’re missing my point, I don’t have a problem showing what Frodo sees when he puts the ring on either as it happens or as a flashback when the company finds him and asks him what he saw. My point was to create suspense instead of action, and to leave the wraiths more mysterious and terrifying by limiting what the audience clearly sees.

[Nurvingiel]

This thread has ended up almost exactly like "The Irony of Jackson Bashing", but I think this one is more appropriate for a movie-adaption discussion. (I'm going to start posting in here instead of that one.)

I think LotR falls into the category of Very Good Action Movie. However, Great Movies Which May or May Not Contain Action beats the entire category of Action Movie. But you guys already know what I think from all my other posts on this subject.

Here's my last post from "The Irony of Jackson Bashing", which I think fits better in this thread.

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Thanks BB As the honoured representative of the Book and Movie Lovers with Book Purist Leanings (BMLBPL) I think I epitomize this by agreeing with half your points, and having some type of rebuttle for the other half . (By the way fellow BMLBPL, you can always vote me out! )

1. They could have done that at the dinner, a scene she was actually in.

2. I agree, and I thought the flood was also really well done. But it appeared as though Arwen caused the flood, when actually it was Gandalf (maybe Elrond collaborated on that too, I forget.)

3. Too bad non-Tolkieners, you're not seeing an ordinary movie! Frodo could out-ride the Nazgul because a) he is a hero, and super tough to the end. I felt this wasn't emphasised enough in FotR and TTT. b) he's riding a pro-star elven horse, which the audience knows because it understands Arwen, who spoke to it in elven. The audience has the benefit of subtitles, no reason to complain. c) Frodo should have at least defied the Nazgul, even if he didn't get there by himself. See a.

4. It succeeded in this, but the scene where Arwen gives Aragorn did that too, and was sufficient to outline her incredible hope and love for Aragorn as well. This may come as a surprise to people, but Arwen is (supposed to be) so far from being a main character she needs opera glasses.

5. That part was super cool. Again, I agree. (It would also have worked with Frodo alone, but this ties in with your near-death argument.)

6. You may have a point but I don't quite get it. Do you mean the Arwen and Eowyn are character foils? Ooh, we could make a thread out of that.

7. Rather than detract from the emotional impact at the end of the movie of his decision to go it alone, I think defiance in this scene would have augmented it. (As mentioned previously, I don't think it matters if the non-Tolkien audience misses some of the subtleties. Even if they do, they will still enjoy a good movie.) I think it would have been an improvement to emphasise Frodo's heroism, rather than have him end up as someone who is either almost dead or almost putting on the Ring.


I have certainly contributed to the analyzing to death of this scene. But points 1 through 6 are just nit-picks. I don't really have any issue with those changes, but point 7 is very important. Frodo is the hero of this story, and he is a hero. I feel this gets lost along the way.

Woah. I'm gonna let someone else post now.
Cheers, /\N/\

[jerseydevil]

Nurvingiel - Elrond caused the flood - he has control over Bruinen. Gandalf added the "horses".

'Who made the flood?' asked Frodo.

'Elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford...If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders...'

[Black Breathalizer]

Frankly, the criticisms here of the film have nothing to do with the quality of the films--they boil down to each individual's personal set of storytelling preferences. We can agree to disagree on how well Peter Jackson's team adapted the books to the big screen. But the bottom line is that by any standard of measurement, Jackson's Lord of the Rings is a spectacular accomplishment and has clearly established itself as a modern day classic and THE film series of our time.

The excitement leading up to ROTK is unmatched in film history. And in this case, film fans won't be disappointed when ROTK finally comes out.

So in response to the topic of this thread, these films go far beyond mere B-movie "action flicks." The Jackson haters in this crowd who continually attempt to bash the films are looking more and more foolish as time goes on. Their views are no different from the Flat Earth Society's. Ignore the overwhelming facts and stand by your beliefs despite how utterly ridiculous they are to everyone else.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So in response to the topic of this thread, these films go far beyond mere B-movie "action flicks." The Jackson haters in this crowd who continually attempt to bash the films are looking more and more foolish as time goes on. Their views are no different from the Flat Earth Society's. Ignore the overwhelming facts and stand by your beliefs despite how utterly ridiculous they are to everyone else.

BB, what are the overwhelming facts being ignored that you speak of? I for one am not a hater of the films, and have successfully managed to divide my feelings between books and movies. But, the only facts that are really important as far as LotRs, are Tolkien's, not Jackson's. The movies are what they are and that's not all bad, but, they are not Tolkien, and therefore, they are not the books. Afterall, this is what these movies are based on isn't it?

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Ignore the overwhelming facts and stand by your beliefs despite how utterly ridiculous they are to everyone else.

This is what kills me, you say that our facts are opinion, but your opinions are facts. The thing is they are all opinions, my feelings of the movies are my opinions, and your feelings about the movies are your opinions, neither is fact. You have said The Flight to the Ford in the book would not work on film, but what are your facts behind this? You can honestly tell me that you can read The Flight to the Ford in the book and not see the cinematic value in that scene? I am not asking you to dislike the way it was done in the film, all I am asking is that you take the time and see how well the scene from the book could have worked. That is what really gets me, I good care less that you love the films, I'm happy for you, but you act as if the changes in the films are the only things that could have made these films work, and nothing else would have, that if it was closer to the books it would have flopped in the theaters. There are many people I talk to who love the films and not even one of the changes bothers them, but they still will admit that if a scene in the film was done just like the book it would have worked just as well, if not better.

My nieces are bothering me right now and I lost what I was saying so I will just end this.