*Appendix Trivia*

[Dúnedain]

Nevermind I read the question wrong

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Frerin was killed in Nanduhirion?

Yes - it's Frerin, and that was his end. Had to look up that name - I know the battle by the dwarf name - Azanulbizar... but an Elvish name is acceptable for about anything in Middle earth, eh?

Your turn Radagast... say, you're good at these dwarvish questions, aren't you?

[Radagast The Brown]

I looked it up. (as if you didn't know)

Who, from the Kings of Gondor, was called Alcarin (sp.), and what is the meaning of the name?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I looked it up. (as if you didn't know)

Who, from the Kings of Gondor, was called Alcarin (sp.), and what is the meaning of the name?

Atanatar II

He kinda ties into another previous question, because he was the son of Hyarmendacil I. The other question asked which King of Gondor ruled during it's highest point. You could have also said it was Atanatar because the name "Alcarin" means "Glorious" and is sometimes called Gondor's greatest King, because during his rule Gondor was at it's height, even though his father help get it there

[Radagast The Brown]

Correct!

[Dúnedain]

When King Elessar rode North, what did he give to Master Samwise on the Brandywine Bridge?

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
When King Elessar rode North, what did he give to Master Samwise on the Brandywine Bridge?

The rumor is that he gave him the Elendilmir, (but I doubt that he would give him something that was tied so closely to his family).

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Keith K
The rumor is that he gave him the Elendilmir, (but I doubt that he would give him something that was tied so closely to his family).

Yup. Actually this could very well be true, because Saruman found the Elendilmir that Isildur was wearing when he was killed at the Gladden Fields. When Saruman was looking for the ring, he found the original Elendilmir, and when Aragorn went back to retake Orthanc they found it in a hidden room. The Elendilmir that Aragorn had was one that was made in Rivendell for the surviving heir...

[Keith K]

That's right, there were two of them. That makes it more plausible (that Aragorn would part with one). That might make an interesting thread subject. I don't suppose the 2nd one had the powers of the first one. That one is documented as blazing brightly as if it had power of some sort. It even could not be subdued by the One Ring.

[Valandil]

Hey Guys, I think the appendix actually says that Aragorn gave Sam, "The Star of the Dunedain"... now THIS is getting outside of the appendix, but I wonder if that was something BESIDES either one of the Elendilmir. UT tells about the two Elendilmir and the different uses that Aragorn made of each one. As important as the shire-folk were to Aragorn, I don't know if he'd have parted with one of the Elendilmir so readily. I think there's even some discussion about that which I read (maybe also in the notes in UT? Or somewhere else???) that thinks it unlikely. Alternately, I wonder if what he actually gave Sam was the same emblem worn by each of the rangers (including Halbarad) who join Aragorn in Rohan... and if that was perhaps a token of their service to him. Maybe even a "badge" of sorts.

What do you guys think?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hey Guys, I think the appendix actually says that Aragorn gave Sam, "The Star of the Dunedain"... now THIS is getting outside of the appendix, but I wonder if that was something BESIDES either one of the Elendilmir. UT tells about the two Elendilmir and the different uses that Aragorn made of each one. As important as the shire-folk were to Aragorn, I don't know if he'd have parted with one of the Elendilmir so readily. I think there's even some discussion about that which I read (maybe also in the notes in UT? Or somewhere else???) that thinks it unlikely. Alternately, I wonder if what he actually gave Sam was the same emblem worn by each of the rangers (including Halbarad) who join Aragorn in Rohan... and if that was perhaps a token of their service to him. Maybe even a "badge" of sorts.

What do you guys think?

The Star of the Dúnedain is the Elendilmir bro...

Yes I believe UT does talk about it. The opinion that Aragorn didn't give Sam the Elendilmir was that of Christopher Tolkien, not JRR as I recall, so for me he doesn't count JRR said Aragorn gave it to Sam, so that's enough for me

Also, about the radiance of it as Keith addressed, the original Elendilmir was much more extranvagant and it shone much brighter and clearly than the one made in Rivendell, even though that was gorgeous in and of itself as it is described. It is stated that the two could not be mistaken and that the original was better, but Aragorn grew to like the one made in Rivendell due to the tradition of his immediate descendants bearing it...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Also, about the radiance of it as Keith addressed, the original Elendilmir was much more extranvagant and it shone much brighter and clearly than the one made in Rivendell, even though that was gorgeous in and of itself as it is described. It is stated that the two could not be mistaken and that the original was better, but Aragorn grew to like the one made in Rivendell due to the tradition of his immediate descendants bearing it...

What is the source of that information? I would like to read it.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Keith K
What is the source of that information? I would like to read it.

I'll have to look, but I think it is in Unfinished Tales and in the Appendix for LotR's as well. Gimme a little bit to find it

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I'll have to look, but I think it is in Unfinished Tales and in the Appendix for LotR's as well. Gimme a little bit to find it

OK, thanks.

[Keith K]

I reckon it's my turn for a Q...

What was Meriadoc's nickname after his return to the Shire?

[Dúnedain]

Ok here are a couple things relating to it:

Unfinished Tales: Disaster of the Gladden Fields from "The sources of the legend of Isildur's death":

But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm, and one of his first tasks was the palantir recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl, filched from Edoras by the agency of Wormtongue during King Théoden's decline, and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from the mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. one was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borned the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treaure without price, long mourned as lost forever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom.(32) Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borned the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself; but though it was a jewel of great beauty, made by the Elven-smiths in Imladris for Valandil Isildur's son, it had not the ancientry nor the potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.

Elessar took it up with reverence, and when he returned to the North and took up again the full kingship of Arnor Arwen bound it upon his brow, and men were silent in amaze to see its splendour. But Elessar did not again imperil it, and wore it only on high days in the North Kingdom. Otherwise, when in kingly raiment he bore the Elendilmir which had descended to him. "And this also is thing of reverence," he said, "and above my worth; forty heads have worn it before."(33)


Unfinished Tales: Disaster of the Gladden Fields in the "Notes" Section:

Note 32; It is told in "Aldarion and Erendis" that Erendis caused the diamond which Aldarion brought to her from Middle-earth "to be set as a star in a silver fillet; and at her asking he bound it on her forehead." For this reason she was known as Tar-Elestirnë, the Lady of the Star-brow; "and thus came, it is said, the manner of Kings and Queens afterward to wear as a star a white jewel upon the brow, and they had no crown". This tradition cannot be unconnected with that of the Elendilmir, a star-life gem borne on the brow as a token of royalty in Arnor; but the original Elendilmir itself, since it belonged to Silmarien, was in existence in Númenor (whatever its origin may have been) before Aldarion brought Erendis' jewel from Middle-earth, and they cannot be the same.

Note 33; The actual number was thirty-eight, since the second Elendilmir was made for Valandil. In the Tale of Years in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings the entry for the year 16 of the Fourth Age (give under Shire Reckoning 1436) states that when King Elessar came to the Brandywine Bridge to greet his friends he gave the Star of the Dúnedain to Master Samwise, while his daughter Elanor was made a maid of honour to Queen Arwen. On the basis of this record Mr. Robert Foster says in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth that "the Star [of Elendil] was worn on the brow of the Kings of the North-kingdom until Elessar gave it to Sam Gamgee in the Fourth Age 16." The clear implication of the present passage is that King Elessar retained indefinitely the Elendilmir that was made for Valadil; and it seems to me in any case out of the question that he would have made a gift of it to the Mayor of the Shire, however greatly he esteemed him. The Elendilmir is called by several names: The Star of Elendil, The Star of the North, the Star of the Northkingdom; and the Star of the Dúnedain (occurring only in this entry in the Tale of Years) is assumed to be yet another both in Robert Foster's Guide and in J. E. A. Tyler's Tolkien Companion. I have found no other reference to it; but it seems to me to be almost certain that it was not, and that Master Samwise received some different (and more suitable) distinction.

There you have it. I find it humorous that Christopher Tolkien says Samwise didn't receive that gift, but yet his father J.R.R. Tolkien says he did...

[Keith K]

Thankyou for posting that Dunedain, you leave me deep in your debt.

[Keith K]

I've given CT's comment some thought and I was inclined to agree with him, as I had always felt that the appendix reference to giving it as a gift just seemed improbable considering the Elendilmir's value. I had doubted it the first time I had read it. There is always an "out" concerning inconsistencies in the text. It is not first hand information but is actually a copy of the Red Book of Westmarch" and as such vulnerable to revisionism of history. Plus the Red Book is biased to a hobbit perspective of history in the first place.

Of course that viewpoint (Elendilmir as gift) was based only on the Red Book which we all know as Lord of the Rings. Since we now have new sources of information ( Unfinished Tales, the Silmirillion, etc). I believe that the Elendilmir was given as a gift. It is not unprecedented to do this with items of worth. The Ring of Barahir comes to mind for one. Also, IMHO since Sam was the greatest of all characters in the books he deserves it more than anyone else!

PS: I hope we are not remiss in getting off subject from the trivia questions. Valandil opened it up in the first place and it is "his" thread.

[Valandil]

So much FUN to dicker over fictitious history, when it's all... fictitious!!

btw Keith, you really have me stumped on that Meriadoc question... just might have to look it up! Meanwhile, some guesses:

'Witch King Killer'

'Hero of the Battle of Bywater'

'Blower of the Silver Horn'

[Keith K]

Wrong
More Wrong
Totally Out There