Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Nanedhel]

It has been cool and damp for two days now, so I have gone into a sort of hibernation mode. This type of weather always makes me want to curl up with a good book, so naturally I have gotten out some of my favorite works by Tolkien, namely the Athrabeth. Now all I need is a crackling fire.

I completely agree with you, RÃ*an, about the feeling of the Athrabeth. It is less about the description of places and events, and is more a feeling of an interaction between two friends. I can not think of any other place in Tolkien's writings where there is such a rich interaction between two individuals, where we can get a feel for their personality and true sense of self. I really grew to like Finrod in this chapter. He is not a remote and intimidating Elf-lord, he is just a friend of Andreth's, trying to better understand his mortal friends and offer what comfort that he is able.

Also, excellent point about the using of Melkor’s name. I had not noticed that before. Perhaps you are right in that Finrod uses Morgoth’s original name around mortals. Perhaps that is the name they are more familiar with, not having renounced it as the Noldor did in Aman. That may take some more thought.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair

…in the end it would appear that humans were the immortal ones since they would go beyond and live again, where as the Elves died when the world died, so they were only immortal within Arda.

That is exactly the impression that I have gotten. It says in the Silmarillion, of mortals, that “Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy�. It has always struck me that mortals, for all of their envy of the perceived immortality of the Elves, are envied far more by the Elves themselves and possibly even by the Valar and Maiar.

Originally posted by Attalus:

but they view themselves as more or less condemned to stay behind when Mankind will go on to something grand, exciting, and truly immortal. The good ones, anyway. In the seminal "On Fairy Stories," JRRT suggests that the "Human Stories" of the Fairies might be concerned with Escape from Deathlessness,

I think this is at the heart of the Elves’ sorrow and fear for the future that Finrod is trying to explain. This is something that I have given a lot of thought to, the Elves' fear of their fate. Some day I will organize my thoughts on that topic, but I think I have rambled on enough for one day.

[Elemmírë]

Are you guys really going to let this jewel of a thread disappear?

Originally Posted by Rian

I don't know what it is, but this story just generates such strong sensory feelings for me. Does anyone else feel that way?

I haven't read this in a while... though I'm going to go get it this weekend... hehe... (probably tomorrow before class), but even after a couple years, I can still almost hear Finrod laughing at one point... and that almost never happens to me in literature.

Someone come talk to the newbie!

[Sister Golden Hair]

One of my favorite parts is where he laughed and then started talking to Andreth about what he would say in Arda Remade to Men, then it says:"Then Finrod paused, for he saw that Andreth was silently weeping." (THUD!) What a guy.

[Elemmírë]

yeah. that's exactly what I'm talking about! That's probably my favourite part too (since I remember it so well... )

Forget getting the book tomorrow morning... I just checked the school library's catalog online and THEY HAVE IT!

Well... it's about time I learned how to navigate our Hogwarts-like library anyway...

*shudders* I'm still looking for a dungeon in it... and I'm not really kidding...

The book. I can buy it for real later.

Be back in about half and hour... going to walk halfway across campus and at 10 at night!



Never mind. It's taken out. Tomorrow morning it is.

But hey! At least someone else in my school is reading HoME

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

yeah. that's exactly what I'm talking about! That's probably my favourite part too (since I remember it so well... )

Forget getting the book tomorrow morning... I just checked the school library's catalog online and THEY HAVE IT!

Well... it's about time I learned how to navigate our Hogwarts-like library anyway...

*shudders* I'm still looking for a dungeon in it... and I'm not really kidding...

The book. I can buy it for real later.

Be back in about half and hour... going to walk halfway across campus and at 10 at night!

Your dungeon is probably the maps section.....and look for some grad student carrels down there, I'm sure there are some 50+ grad students chained to their desks scrivening away by candlelight....have a care lest you end among them!

FB

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Your dungeon is probably the maps section.....and look for some grad student carrels down there, I'm sure there are some 50+ grad students chained to their desks scrivening away by candlelight....have a care lest you end among them!

I always wondered whether we had grad students on campus... Hm... now I know the answer... Once, long ago, but no more...


Okay! My quest has finally been successful, though somewhere along the line a quick trip to a bookstore actually did turn into a fullblown and frightening adventure. Anyway... it finally concluded at the photocopying machine of one of the local public libraries, where I wasted precious coins and paper trying to figure out just how to get the thing to work... But now, all has worked out, and I have my own personal, handmade copy of the Athrabeth (at least until my mother throws it away over Thanksgiving... )

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I think Finrod tried to relate to her though, that in the end it would appear that humans were the immortal ones since they would go beyond and live again, where as the Elves died when the world died, so they were only immortal within Arda. In the story though, neither have a real answer, but speculation drives their conversation concerning mortality and I think it is the third theme of Music. Finrod believes, or wants to believe that at that time, they (Men and Elves) will be brought together on more even grounding so to speak. Men would be the Lordly ones and the Elves would be something like to what Men were in Arda, but they would all live and dwell together forever. Not sure if I explained it the way I wanted to. It's such a deep and complex story.

I think you explained it really well, SGH.

It's been a long day, and I just reread it for the first time, so for now, I have a comment and a question.

First of all, while reading the section about moths and fire, I couldn't help but remember the first Athrabeth thread that you guys were working on, when SGH - it was you, right? - asked about candles and moths pitying each other... Anyway, I don't know if this was brought up before, but when I thought about the wind that blows out the candle, I realised that (unless it's a hurricane, a tornado, or a really bad storm ), a moth would be relatively untouched by wind. And likewise, as far as I know, fire can burn itself... signifying their ultimate inability to relate to one another. Maybe this shows the innate differences between the elvish and human conditions...

Ooooooookay.................


And now my (first, hehe) question: can someone clarify something about this story to me? Finrod talks about "amdir - looking up," and Andreth describes it as "an expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known."

Finrod also talks about "Estel" which "is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being."

Andreth goes on to talk about Men's hope for healing to be rather than Estel, Amdir without reason...

I think the definitions of "Estel" and "Amdir" may be confusing me, because I personally can't see a difference between "Estel" and "Amdir without reason." Maybe because I am not an Elda (hehe... see, I'll admit it ).

Any ideas?

[Nanedhel]

Excellent question, Elemmire! and a great way to start a discussion.

From what I understand, Amdir is essentially hope that has its foundation in experience, or what is known, while Estel is hope that has no foundation in past experience, but rather places its trust in that which is unknown. I have always considered Estel to be more like faith, or the act of turning over control of one's fate and placing trust in a higher power, if you will.

Among the Atani, as you call us, or the Seekers as we say: those who left the lands of despair and the Men of darkness and journeyed west in vain hope: it is believed that healing may yet be found, or that there is some way of escape. But is this indeed Estel? Is it not Amdir rather; but without reason: mere flight in a dream from what waking they know: that there is no escape from darkness and death?

It seems to me to that Andreth is referring to the vain hope of a people who are fleeing a fate which they fear and feel is unjust. They are a people who have convinced themselves that there is hope of healing and salvation in the west, when they are in fact merely turning a blind eye to the reality of their own fate. They want to believe that the truth about themselves is that their basic nature has been corrupted by Morgoth, and that there is hope that they will be restored to their true strength through an act of faith in coming into the west in a search for salvation. If this were the case, then they would be motivated by Estel, or hope that has its foundation in the belief, or trust, that the wrongs done to them will be made right. However, it seems that Andreth’s fear is that they have instead been decieved into placing their trust in a promise of salvation from a fate which they feel is unjust, but which is in reality their own basic nature which Morgoth has caused them to fear and distrust. In this case, they have placed their hope in something that is known, but happens to be false, and deceived themselves into believing that it is the truth. I do not believe that true Estel can be deceived by falsehood, whereas Amdir can be if it based in experience that laced with lies and deceit.

[Valandil]

Went to the library today... just to get some peace and quiet to read some articles to meet Continuing Ed requirements. Naturally - I chanced by the 'Tolk...' part of the Fiction section.

They had Morgoth's Ring!!!

I broused the beginning of the Athrabeth... great stuff! One profound statement after another!

Checked it out... three weeks, baby!!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Lucky you!!! It is the best!

[Rían]

Great question on Amdir/Estel, Elemmire! I'll think about it as I go pick up the kids

[Elemmírë]

Thank you, Nanedhel, and RÃ*an, I look forward to hearing from you.

I agree with SGH... it is the best. I brought it home with me over Thanksgiving and my brother and mom read it... my brother (ahem, Finnrodde) loved it. My mom had no idea what was going on... she had never read the Silm and hardly remembered anything from LotR (she read it 30 years ago or so, and the movies, though entertaining enough IMO, don't exactly explain things... She entirely missed the key parts of the story (such as the Aegnor/Andreth element that was IMO underlying it) and left thinking that Finrod was Legolas's father. I have no idea how that happened...

Anyway, enjoy your reading, Valandil. We're waiting...

Sorry, nothing of real importance or sustance to add today. Next time, I promise. I'll go read it again and see what I missed at the last reading...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Anyway, enjoy your reading, Valandil. We're waiting...

Well - not sure what to say yet. I've read some more, but have only been able to read a little at a time, and haven't gotten far yet. Each quote though, seems so profound, and to have so much meaning beyond their conversation... a more universal meaning.

A high level of 'applicability'?

Anyway, maybe I'm taking this too far out there, but I've had thoughts on the following lines (please note that my use of 'Man' is gender-inclusive, naturally, since 'Man' is represented by a woman, Andreth - so take it as 'mankind' or 'humanity' or 'people' if you like):

* Man's wisdom butting up against its limits (itself?)
* A Man of Reason speaking with a Man of Faith.
* A skeptic speaking with a churchman (although Finrod, as much as he tries to empathize with Men, is not one of them and does not fully, intimately, directly, understand their condition - while a churchman would be a man... as well as a Man of Faith). So this could also be 'A skeptic speaking with an Angel' - but I presume an Angel would have a greater understanding of Man's creation and God's intent regarding them.
* A skeptic reasoning with himself.

I guess my focus has been on the 'spiritual' aspects and parallels because there's so much discussion about life and death an afterlife - including Eru's/God's creation of Man and His original intent for him... as well as just HOW MUCH Morgoth/Satan could have corrupted this.

I'll see if this holds up as I read further (other aspects of life permitting).

I see such broad ground covered though, that it's easy to see this single essay as a great springboard for many discussions similar to currently active threads at Entmoot - on the nature of good and evil, of Eru, etc, etc...

[Rían]

Have you reached the First Voice part yet?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Have you reached the First Voice part yet?

I don't think so. If you have it handy (and I think there's still only one edition, so all page numberings would be the same, correct?) - I left off in about the middle of 318 today. So I have a good stretch still to go. I'm hoping to have more time available to read next week than I've had the last couple.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think so. If you have it handy (and I think there's still only one edition, so all page numberings would be the same, correct?) - I left off in about the middle of 318 today. So I have a good stretch still to go. I'm hoping to have more time available to read next week than I've had the last couple.

Am I the only one who read it straight?

Yes, there's only one edition. At least, that's what the guy at Barnes & Noble told me... after butchering the book's name.

You bring up an interesting interpretation, Valandil. I must admit, I only read it at a literal level. I hate symbolism. I'm going to have to reread it now and look for that type of stuff...

I understand what you mean about "a skeptic reasoning with himself," but I find that hard to conceive in this essay. IMO, Finrod's reasoning is somewhat foreign to human thinking (as foreign as a human author can make it, of course ). This is probably the root of some of their miscommunications...

Originally Posted by Valandil

I see such broad ground covered though, that it's easy to see this single essay as a great springboard for many discussions similar to currently active threads at Entmoot - on the nature of good and evil, of Eru, etc, etc...

Indeed. That's why I so often quote it in other threads. When I'm not in the Cafe, that is...

[Attalus]

I agree that since Tolkien wrote all the Atrabeth himself, he was arguing with himself, but he was trying, I think, with one stroke to illustrate the Eldar's view of Mankind and work the Fall of Man and the eventual salvation of Mankind into one essay. I would love to see one between Finrod, or Galadriel or even Elrond talking to a Catholic Christian of JRRT's stripe.

[Valandil]

Read quite a bit this morning (home sick with an upset tummy! ) - I finally got to the 'First Voice' - which is in the 'Tale of Adanel'. Earlier, read about the 'Old Hope'... Hmmmmmm! Interesting... the concept that 'The One' would Himself enter Arda... and yet at the same time remaining 'The Author Without'! That makes two parts of the Trinity!

Nice to see that Andreth contributes greatly to Finrod's understanding of things... or at least give him several things to think about, regarding the purpose of Men and the eventual future for them all.

[Rían]

*bump*

Val, did you finish it?

[Valandil]

NO - I must've read about 80% - but I just didn't come up with a nice block of time to sit and pour over it. I renewed the book once from the library - but then took it back when I couldn't finish in the second set of three weeks.

It was kinda funny. I was sick again the day it was due (Jan 8, I think) - so I took it in that Monday, feeling kinda guilty, 'cause I hadn't returned a book late in ages (if ever). I set the book down at the return counter and mentioned that it was late, reached into my pocket for some change as the librarian scanned it - then she looked sort of perplexed and told me not to worry about it since it was just barely late.

(while walking up to the library I had remembered some story from Michigan about some librarians who were pushing for stricter punishments - even prison sentences (!!! ) for late book returns... but I was hoping they wouldn't 'throw the book at me' - so to speak )

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Valandil

(while walking up to the library I had remembered some story from Michigan about some librarians who were pushing for stricter punishments - even prison sentences (!!! ) for late book returns... but I was hoping they wouldn't 'throw the book at me' - so to speak )

That's kind of scary, Val.

Anyway, I've been wondering something about the Athrabeth. Finrod refers to having "beheld as a vision Arda Remade," and then continues with his theory.

Does anyone know or have any opinion as to whether this is simply his own vision (such as, perhaps, his foresight of his death), or is this a more common idea among Elves.

I cannot help but be reminded of lines from the Silmarillion referring to the end of Arda, where it is written: "whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it" and "...if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know, but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."

At the same time, it also says "though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days."

Since clearly it's not the Valar who have said this, who did? Probably an Elf, I would guess...

So... anyone else see the parallels or has my obsession clouded my reason completely?