The Singers Thread

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Ah, the tongue Does it help to think that the tip of your tongue should always fall (naturally, not in a forced way) behind the back of your bottom front teeth?

Unfortunately it doesn't. I have to think of the tongue from the back, not from the front.

I know what you mean. I used to get the same thing in those classes, where no one else was giving any criticism except the teacher. The other students are all "yeah, that was really good!", but that's not what we perfectionists want to hear - tell me what was WRONG with it, please? For the most part those classes are useless, except for the teacher/coach comments.

The annoying thing is that one of the studios I asked to get into (which, despite being 'full' accepted a number of freshmen students. ) has a seminar where the teacher insists that everyone have one positive and one negative critique for each singer. That's what annoys me. I could've gone to that studio and gotten some great feedback. Oh well.

I often found more good constructive criticism on my jury notes (at my school we always got to see them after grades were posted, i don't know about yours). At least these kinds of classes offer a chance to work on performance skills, performance nerves and things of that nature.

We do get those... but what annoyed me was that after singing TONS better than I ever had before even though I was sick, I got B's on my last jury sheet for things like vowels. Where as the semester before when I had sung not as well, had TERRIBLE vowels, and was sicker... I got some A's. To quote my old teacher, "Son, you can't give a damn because I know what your voice needs, and you know what your voice needs, and everyone else is just an armchair critic."

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

To quote my old teacher, "Son, you can't give a damn because I know what your voice needs, and you know what your voice needs, and everyone else is just an armchair critic."

HA! In essense he's right, though, isn't he?

[Tessar]

I think so, plus people expect to hear a certain thing from you so they listen for it.

To quote my newer male teacher, "I've heard people sing like pigs at auditions, then come back two years later sounding like Metropolitan Opera super stars but they get disqualified in the exact same round because the judges only remember how badly they sang the first time."

[Voronwen]

That's hilarious But, i don't doubt it. This is why one is usually advised to not audition for anything significant until they're at a certain level of technique.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think a great example of a small, pure voice is Sissel... not sure how to spell her last name. Kejrkbo? She's not my favorite voice, but she's extremely musical, where as I feel as if the Celtic Women are all pretty voices without much else.

Originally Posted by Tessar

I'm not sure that would really appeal to the mass public, but then you have Sessel who's made a career out of singing pop ballads AND opera arias in the same concert, so who knows?

My fellow Norwegian, Sissel Kyrkjebø!

[Tessar]

I love her. She phrases so well, and her voice is just very crystalline and pure.

[Varnafindë]

She's very popular in Norway. Yes, a very pure voice.
When she first became famous, she was still only a teenager. One of her first albums was a Christmas Carols one (in 1986) - the most-selling record of Norway ever. It has sold more than 600 000 copies, in a country with just over 4 million people ...

[Tessar]

I just gave my dad a lesson. He has stopped making progress, and I think he may have even regressed slightly. I think he probably has a good instrument and plenty of potential, but until he seeks out help for dealing with the rest of his life I think there is just too much going on in his head to allow him to sing freely.

And of course he gets furious any time anyone suggests he should see a psychiatrist. Oh well. He's too tense, and he can't loosen up ever. It's impossible to spend every moment of your life tense, then expect to loosen up for an hour to sing well, then return to being stressed and clamped down. It doesn't work that way.

I wont give up, but I feel like there isn't anything I can do at this point because the problem is coming from inside his mind.

He almost made me angry, actually. He was trying to correct my piano playing because he thought I was doing it wrong. He friggin started trying to snap the tempo for me because he was convinced I was doing the eighth note incorrectly in a phrase. Then of course he was snapping off of the tempo I was playing... he was snapping the beats about a 16th after I was actually playing them, and I suspect he still thinks that he was right and I was wrong. Whaaatever . If it makes him happy then it's fine .

He loves me and he tries to support me . It's all good. I feel bad for him that he can't relax, but I don't think it really reflects on me... when he was doing better emotionally we did make great progress. So it's on him to improve himself.

[Voronwen]

Tessar, i'm so sorry today's lesson didn't go well But you're right, there's a certain point where progress can't be achieved unless the person learning takes some necessary steps.

With singing, it's very psychological. I know for a fact that i can't sing freely when i am stressed. But in a situation where i have to, there are coping mechanisms that we need to learn.

Singing is just a very emotional thing. Because it's tied in with our speech centers it reflects everything that's going on inside of us emotionally. It's all tied in with the way we verbally express ourselves, so it stands to reason.

And because it's so tied in with our emotional selves on that level, sometimes it can reveal hidden tensions that are purely psychological. I've heard stories of people having technical breakthroughs relating to the release of tensions and breaking down into tears right in the middle of a lesson That has never happened to me, thankfully, but i had a similar experience once. It was right after our pre-jury masterclass during my junior year. I was dealing with a lot of performance anxiety (something i had to work very hard against while in school, time and again, in order to use my gift because i was born with the voice to sing but not the personality to be extroverted ). While my in-class performance had gone well, on the inside i was a mess. After everyone else had left, i walked up to my teacher, and asked, "That really s***ed, didn't it?" ... And i put my head down on the piano and just sobbed. Out of nowhere. It was crazy. But the anxiety was such that the release of facing it and getting through it was enough to set something off. My teacher was very compassionate and told me that it was some of the better singing she had heard from me yet. This was in the days while i was still quite green and didn't have a solid working technique yet, but it was coming along (it was the following teacher who was to be the one who brought me to that level). And it was true - this WAS a class where the students gave good feedback, and the only negative feedback i got, including from the teacher, was that they had heard me sing louder before so they knew i had more in there than i was letting out that day. This was also true. I've come a long way since then, but the situation is universal. Whatever is bothering the singer on the emotional level, especially if it's somehow related to the task at hand (and many things are, oddly enough), then it can yield some interesting things.

[Tessar]

Sorry it sounds like you had a rough time of it O_o. You've obviously made great mental strides since then.

So today during my lesson I vocalized to a solid G#. It ain't pretty yet, but it was definitely solid. I still believe I may have a performable A or even A# in me. We'll see .

Weirdness abounds, though. *sigh* So here's the latest addition to the weird-parade: My teacher at the school has been 'invited to stay for a year as an assistant professor of voice'. She has been working on several articles that she really wants to publish, but apparently the head of our music department (not voice, but entire music department) has asked her not to publish them till next year...

Supposedly next year they're going to decide if they want her to go on a tenure track or not. But I just... I hope, for her sake, that they do that for her. She's a great lady and I think she's a fantastic teacher. But the problem is that I have seen way too many other teachers apply for tenure and not receive it. I can't imagine why they'll pull in this woman then one year later tenure track her when professors who have been there for years haven't gotten one.

Unless of course this is also a 'political' thing and they want her there because they know she's a great teacher, and because she wants to publish articles... which would help them balance out the one guy who is a researcher/voice teacher and who has been asking for tenure on the basis of being the only one there to get articles published... which is a pretty decent argument in my opinion.

She also apparently has some pretty fantastic ideas for musical theater technique (which I wont go into since she asked me not to reveal them ) which might make sense if they're planning to start a music theater degree like I've heard rumors of. The technique she described to me is pretty brilliant, in my opinion. The minute she began to describe it I knew exactly what she was aiming for and I wondered why I'd never thought of it.

*sigh* I don't know. This whole thing is weirdness.


She was really nice today, though . She told me she's very excited to have me as a student because she can talk to me pedagogically, through imagery, and just by example, and I can understand what she's talking about in all instances. I've also shown her that I practice the things we work on in lessons during my every-day practices and she was really excited about some of the exercises I've made for myself based off of the things she's taught me.

For all that her voice tends to be a little uneven in placement, I think she's got a pretty killer technique. She's definitely a low mezzo with a beautiful, thick lower range... but today during a faculty performance she sang a HUGE A5. I told her later that it almost sounded like a dramatic soprano, and asked if she had difficulty with those notes. She just laughed and said, "Oh, no... with good technique even a low voice like me can hit a High C." She even did a pianissimo to forte A5 for me... it was very impressive.

She explained to me that she loves to sing but isn't really a performer because she's shy. She's been in a couple of operas though (with real opera companies, not just school productions and etc.) and has sung extensive oratorio. It sort of makes sense... I have, in a totally unscientific and possibly wrong way , noticed that people who are shy do tend to have some odd placement issues. It's like their voice doesn't want to stay in the mask all of the time. I suspect a part of it is that battle with shyness. Sort of a little voice in their ear going, "I don't want people to hear me!" that tends to pull their voice back just a little.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

She's definitely a low mezzo with a beautiful, thick lower range...

What i wouldnt do for a voice like that!

but today during a faculty performance she sang a HUGE A5. I told her later that it almost sounded like a dramatic soprano, and asked if she had difficulty with those notes. She just laughed and said, "Oh, no... with good technique even a low voice like me can hit a High C."

She's absolutely right. There are mezzos who have high E's They don't use them in performance, though. Range isn't everything when it comes to what type of voice a person is - ie, like in my case, having a high F# does not a true coloratura make - i'm still a light lyric soprano. It's all about the place where the voice is at its best, and, assuming the person has good technique, where it's the most comfortable (ie. signing in this tessitura doesn't make you vocally tired, etc).

She explained to me that she loves to sing but isn't really a performer because she's shy.

She sounds like me

I have, in a totally unscientific and possibly wrong way , noticed that people who are shy do tend to have some odd placement issues. It's like their voice doesn't want to stay in the mask all of the time. I suspect a part of it is that battle with shyness. Sort of a little voice in their ear going, "I don't want people to hear me!" that tends to pull their voice back just a little.

Yeah! That's exactly where i was in the scenario i had described in my post above. Thankfully i was able to work through it. I eventually thought, what's the point in singing, and not only that but putting so much energy into singing well, if i was then not going to let anybody hear it?

[Tessar]

My sister is surprisingly awesome some times .

She came to me after dinner and said, "Okay, we need to do some more of the voice lesson stuff," (we haven't gotten together since that first lesson since I didn't want to 'force' her into it), "because there's a part in this piece where the line goes from an Eb4 to a C4, and my voice always fades out."

I could see she was a little skeptical at first, not sure if I'd be able to help... but I mean come on . Voice fading out? Difficulty with low notes? I live for the easy fixes. Hehehehe.

I did the ol' one-two knockout of support/placement and she found that she could suddenly sing low and connected. She was very happy with the results.


THEN! Since we were on a roll anyways, we did some more vocalizing and I got her to bring her full voice up into her head voice so that she didn't just flip over into a weak and airy sound. At first I was worried because she had a strange look on her face, and then she finally said, "Wow, you know... it's actually a lot easier to sing this way. My throat doesn't hurt or feel tight."

I pretty much could've died right then . AWESOME SAUCE!

It's a light voice, and with even minimal technique she's got a beautiful high Bb, although the B and C still need a lil' polishing. Basically it's just placement and support. Great natural voice.

But you know... I suspect she might have a bigger voice than she thinks. I dunno if she'll ever access it or not, and it's not a big voice... but it's very small right now, and I think a lot of that is her somewhat timid demeanor. She likes to talk quietly, and she's kind of shy. But if she can push past that, I think she's got a mediumish sized voice in there for sure. Either way, it's pretty, and I think with just a little work she'll find herself singing much more easily than ever before.


She got some great encouragement though, because my mom was sitting on the other side of the room being silent and not looking at us. At one point when we got to the G5 for the first time I said, "Okay, now make the air spin faster and shove your tongue forward instead of using your jaw," and when my sister floated up to a gorgeous, pingy G, my mom goes, "WOW!" really loudly without even looking up from her computer typing. It was awesome.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

My sister is surprisingly awesome some times .

She came to me after dinner and said, "Okay, we need to do some more of the voice lesson stuff,"

Ah, i love it!

As for the rest - GREAT JOB!!!

I always knew you had the makings of a good teacher. Yes, one of the GOOD ones! Maybe someday i'll be coming to you for lessons!

[Voronwen]

I *LOVE* this Aria!!!

I want to learn it!

Ombre, piante - Handel's Rodelinda

I've never heard of this singer before, but she has a timbre and qualities similar to mine.

Note to self: Get more Handel aria books!! I only have one. I love the heart-stirring ones like this that are in a minor key. I love the minor mode!!!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

At first I was worried because she had a strange look on her face, and then she finally said, "Wow, you know... it's actually a lot easier to sing this way. My throat doesn't hurt or feel tight."

I love her "moment of truth".

You seem to be doing a good job of teaching her - and it seems that her trust in you as a teacher has been growing! Good for her - for both of you, in fact!

[Voronwen]

How's our Tessar doing today? Better, i hope?

[Tessar]

Not really. I apparently really trashed my voice because I sang so much Tuesday and then all day Wednesday, so yesterday it was not so good... and I had to sing a fair bit yesterday. I mean it was okay, but I sounded too heavy and I couldn't help being a little flat just because my voice was so worn. It didn't hurt, it was just uncomfortable.

My voice teacher at school wasn't very happy when I explained the problem, and we had a little conversation about how I need to be more sparing with my voice when I'm having allergy problems. I already knew that, but it didn't hurt to be reminded, I guess. I was just dumb and overused my voice. I have to be smarter though, because like she explained I've got a full plate... I can't afford to lose my voice because I'm being paid to sing at church, I have Pirate rehearsals that are a big part of my school reputation, and I have NATS in November, plus I hope to compete in our concerto and aria competition in December.

So today I'm going to try my best not to sing, and same deal tomorrow. Today we have rehearsal from 3-5:30, and tomorrow from 9-12, so I may just have to explain to the director that I can't sing today. My throat feels fine now, but I'm not going to even bother trying to sing considering how crappy it felt last night. I think it's wiser to just go ahead and rest it.

I'm physically exhausted, I can't really sing, and I still feel like the biggest idiot loser in the world for my stupidity over the choir thing.


I'm trying to formulate a strategy to give the choir director the sound he wants. I think I might try feeding 'ah' into all of my vowels, and I'll trumpet the lips a little. We'll see if that makes it too mushy, but I think it's worth a try. I'll also try jamming my pallet up as high as I can to see if that helps. I think part of the problem on Wednesday night was that in my nervousness I probably sang vowels with my mouth in a tight position... not enough space on the inside, so I had plenty of ping but no warmth.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

My voice teacher at school wasn't very happy when I explained the problem, and we had a little conversation about how I need to be more sparing with my voice when I'm having allergy problems. I already knew that, but it didn't hurt to be reminded, I guess. I was just dumb and overused my voice.

It happens to us all Her advice was good, though. We all need to hear things we 'already know' sometimes.

I'm physically exhausted, I can't really sing, and I still feel like the biggest idiot loser in the world for my stupidity over the choir thing.

Awww Well, you're not an idiot or a loser. "To err is human". You learned from it, and you won't let it happen again. The real losers are the ones who make the same mistakes over and over again and never learn a thing. Obviously, they just don't care. You do care, so that's definitely not you.

I think part of the problem on Wednesday night was that in my nervousness I probably sang vowels with my mouth in a tight position... not enough space on the inside, so I had plenty of ping but no warmth.

Ah yes, nerves often kick our technique out the nearest window In addition to the things you're going to try, also really make sure your support is solid. We can sometimes get off the support when we're nervous. Something my teacher told me at the time when i was dealing with performance anxiety (not your problem, i know, but it may be of help) was to really hook in to that support, lean into it, as a sort of grounded feeling. This makes sure that at least the support is working. If you at least have that, you can do most anything, even when you're nervous.

I hope that helps.

[Tessar]

My voice is still pretty trashed, but I'm praying it's on the mend and will be there on Sunday. At least I didn't sing in choir today, that's good. But I did have to sing quite a bit for Pirates today, and I -had- to practice my stuff for Sunday.

Tomorrow I'm going to try not to sing, and at least tomorrow I can sleep in till 8 instead of getting up at 6:30. I think the quintuple whammy of stress, less than optimal sleep and sleep amounts, over singing, working my high range so much in lessons, and probably allergies is what did me in and is why it's taking my voice so long to recover. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get away without singing entirely tomorrow though, because I still do need to practice The Heavens Are Telling some more, and from 9-12 we'll be doing the choreography for the police stuff... meaning all of MY stuff. Erk.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Awww Well, you're not an idiot or a loser. "To err is human". You learned from it, and you won't let it happen again. The real losers are the ones who make the same mistakes over and over again and never learn a thing. Obviously, they just don't care. You do care, so that's definitely not you.

Well, you know I had a long conversation tonight with my friend about all of that and some of my other doubts and fears... and what I still feel like it boils down to is that I just can't make mistakes like this. Because there is someone out there better than I am, who wants this even more than I do, and who is going to be luckier than I am... and if I want to compete with them I have to not make mistakes. It's impossible to be perfect, but there's a difference between doing something not quite right and making an outright, stupid mistake like I did.


Unfortunately our conversation was very illuminating, but it wasn't really comforting persay... which I wasn't really looking for comfort, so that's fine, but it just makes me realize how far I still have to go. He pretty much agreed that today in rehearsal my voice was thin, tired, small, and that I was over-driving it in an attempt to compensate for being exhausted and having so little voice to work with. And frankly I can't help but wonder if I even have that much voice even when I am healthy. It's pretty friggin' depressing, but that doesn't mean I have the slightest intention of giving up . I'll get over it.

It just confirms that I need to do some recordings of my voice with decent equipment.