Abortion.

[Spock]

"No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up."
Lily Tomlin (1939 - ), Actress

[Lotesse]

Hey, here's Ms. Tomlin -

http://www.lilytomlin.com/home.htm

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Tree Dweller

I just don't think you can judge a child's entire life by the situation in which they were concieved.

i agree... but when the situation occurs you have to... you had the strength to handle your situtation... not everyone one does (people are different)... and, as i mentioned earlier... the systems in place for dealing with unwanted pregnancies in ways other than abortion leave a lot to be desired

the question "I still don't understand how the taking of the child's life is ok in one situation and not the other???" is moot... what is "okay" is relative to the individual

the question should be, "how can we change things so that less people will abort their children" ... the answer to this is not outlawing abortion, since it will happen anyway... the answer is better options for the mothers who do not want to keep their child or who are afraid at the time (whether right or wrong) that they won't be able to handle keeping the child

laws should not be designed around the strongest individuals... they should work for everyone

[rohirrim TR]

I don't want to debate about this i would just like to point out that abortion is unnecesasary, My parent are awesome they have adopted twice(and no i wasn't adopted myself) and are going to adopt again. there are thousands(maybe millions but i don't have any stats at the moment) of couples that would like to adopt, it is simply a better solution to the same problem.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

I don't want to debate about this .

It seems you are.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Earth is an insane asylum, to which the other planets deport their lunatics."
Voltaire, in Memnon the Philosopher

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

I don't want to debate about this i would just like to point out that abortion is unnecesasary, My parent are awesome they have adopted twice(and no i wasn't adopted myself) and are going to adopt again. there are thousands(maybe millions but i don't have any stats at the moment) of couples that would like to adopt, it is simply a better solution to the same problem.

Then why doesnt it cure the problem? Adoption is legal.

[rohirrim TR]

i don't know why it doesn't cure everything i'm just pointing out that abortion is unnecesary, and no spock i'm not debating(or at least i don't mean to )

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

i don't know why it doesn't cure everything i'm just pointing out that abortion is unnecesary, and no spock i'm not debating(or at least i don't mean to )

Oh, silly, unsuspecting goose! Of COURSE you're debating; you're stating your viewpoint in a forum wherein others are obliged to state theirs.

Quick definitions (Debate)


noun: the formal presentation of and opposition to a stated proposition (usually followed by a vote)
noun: a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal
verb: argue with one another (Example: "We debated the question of abortion")
verb: discuss the pros and cons of an issue
verb: think about carefully; weigh
verb: have an argument about something

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

... what is "okay" is relative to the individual ...

I'll take that quote over to the Origins thread ....

[Rían]

wow ....


Thank you, Tree Dweller, for sharing your experience with us.

*moothug*

I have some comments I'll share a bit later from people I've heard from that have carried a child of rape, and they're very, very powerful statements. I just have no time now.

But I wanted to thank Tree Dweller for sharing a very personal part of her life with us.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'll take that quote over to the Origins thread ....

don't take it too out of context

the key word there is "individual" ... abortion is not necessary, i'll agree with TR ... but it IS a choice people some people make, even before it was legal ... and i think more time, which is now spent fighting the "principle" of abortion, should be put in to combatting the reasons why people make that choice (and it aint about religion either... christians get abortions too)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah thanks TD. I agree with you wholeheartedly. If you are raped or you become pregnant and you don't want the child then you could have it adopted . But I don'tdon't see how we have the right to take away the chance of a life from somebody else. They may have a bad life, but they may have a good life, there is no way of telling, but they still have the right to a chance.

[Tree Dweller]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and i think more time, which is now spent fighting the "principle" of abortion, should be put in to combatting the reasons why people make that choice (and it aint about religion either... christians get abortions too)

My humble opinion on that would be our extremely "me-centered" society and way of life. If all anyone is conserned about is pleasing themselves, then it is only natural that they wish to take away any consequences of their actions.
(To be clear, what I am speaking of is people carelessly getting pregnant, not rape....which makes up at least 90% of abortions)
My reasons for having an abortion were the same as anyone else I have ever talked to who had one. And one of the main ones was how it would affect my life......could I go to college....could I have the career I wanted....etc...
Well, I should have thought about all that before I had unprotected sex.
So, to have abortion legal and extremly inexpensive is just an open door for people to use it as "birth control".
I can't tell you how many girls I heard in the clinic practically bragging about how many abortions they had already had.

[HOBBIT]

Extreme pro-choice views such as "Don't care if she was raped. Tough. Has to have the kid. If she doesn't want it, put it up for adoption"


Ok, so that is what YOU would do, but to have that be the law and to force that upon ALL women in that situation?

Carrying the child of their rapist..... great.


The rape case is an extreme case that probably most people would allow the abortion early on.


What about if you are too young to support the child? Have to give up your own child for adoption again??? Punishment for careless sex?


That whole viewpoint seems so extreme to me.

We have no idea when exactly the fetus "becomes alive" I guess pro-lifers think it is at conception. Why?

Shouldn't the rights of the mother be stronger than the rights of a not yet in existance child?

[Tree Dweller]

If the argument is when does life really begin and no one can agree on and exact week or month, then wouldn't the safest thing be to ere on the side of life?

[HOBBIT]

Yeah at the expense of the women not allowed to get abortions. Forced to carry and un-wanted child. And think of all the "back-yard/back-alley abortions" - ultimately resulting in many medical situations and death among the women - who we DO KNOW are alive.

[Butterbeer]

I feel as many others here, that i don't really want to get involved in this debate right now...

but one thing i did want to say and am amazed no one has (sorry if i missed it - if someone did)

but tree-dweller my sincerest thoughts to you that you did get raped

my thoughts are with you.

and i am full of admiration for you that you have just stated it here for the first time - may it hopefully help you find some sort of release (can't think of the right words ... )

and guys whatever your thoughts on this ... have a thought for tree-dweller .. that must have been a hard thing to decide to say.

best all
BB

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Tree Dweller

My humble opinion on that would be our extremely "me-centered" society and way of life. If all anyone is conserned about is pleasing themselves, then it is only natural that they wish to take away any consequences of their actions.
(To be clear, what I am speaking of is people carelessly getting pregnant, not rape....which makes up at least 90% of abortions)
My reasons for having an abortion were the same as anyone else I have ever talked to who had one. And one of the main ones was how it would affect my life......could I go to college....could I have the career I wanted....etc...
Well, I should have thought about all that before I had unprotected sex.
So, to have abortion legal and extremly inexpensive is just an open door for people to use it as "birth control".
I can't tell you how many girls I heard in the clinic practically bragging about how many abortions they had already had.

Hmm... so you can write this yet not get what I was saying back on the other page? Ok. I used to have an extreme view such as I've seen when it comes to rape victims until I seen how a supposedly upstanding non-denominational Christian church (Calvary Fellowship) treated a young woman who had something similar to my Scenario #1 happen to her. First, their counseling toward her rape was more toward how she could have prevented the situation she got into in the first place, then later by the congregations general shunning of her for supposedly being "immoral" when it became known she was pregnant. She then had an abortion, and then was basicly accused by these same people of murder. I did not see much iof Jesus's love coming from these people toward her through the whole thing, yet she is to this day a good Christian woman.

Point is each case has to be weighed, and not covered by a religious law.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I feel as many others here, that i don't really want to get involved in this debate right now...

but one thing i did want to say and am amazed no one has (sorry if i missed it - if someone did)

but tree-dweller my sincerest thoughts to you that you did get raped

my thoughts are with you.

and i am full of admiration for you that you have just stated it here for the first time - may it hopefully help you find some sort of release (can't think of the right words ... )

and guys whatever your thoughts on this ... have a thought for tree-dweller .. that must have been a hard thing to decide to say.

best all
BB

It IS a really, really, REALLY really hard thing to say, even on the moot where none of us actually see each other's faces. Tree Dweller, you're incredibly strong to have been able to say it, now since you have, I'll cop up to the fact that yes, so was I. Twice, two entirely different times, both by stalkers whom I didn't even know. The first time WAS my first time, I'd been a virgin. And it made me pregnant, and I aborted. *phew* There. I said it. Thank you to Tree Dweller, whose courage and fearlessness about frankly speaking up on such horribly private, sensitive stuff, man oh man my heart is racing right now...

[Snowdog]

(((HUGS))) to Tree Dweller and Lotesse for talking about their experiences here.

Any dirt-bag of a male who would force themselves upon a lady are indeed the lowest form of scum, and it is best that I do not run into any who have done this for it would not be pleasent.