Theological Opinions

[Nurvingiel]

I grew up in a mixed religious household. My mom was agnostic and my dad was atheist. I remember the fights.
"There is no God."
"There might be."

I love that joke.
[/OT]

Isn't a religion with more than one diety a polytheistic religion? Of course, there could still be a diety more powerful than the others.
[/more OT]


JD you listed many denominations of Christianity. I agree that they all interpret the Bible differently. Though I'm sure you're right about there being the idea of submission in Judaism and Islam, I don't think anyone here is qualified to speak on either. (The only thing I can say about this idea in Judaism is based on reading The Chosen, by Chiam Potok. Excellent book BTW, one of my favourites.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

atheism - no supreme deity (some buddhist sects, some animist religions, taosim et al)
monotheism - one supreme deity (christianity, islam, judaism)
polytheism - multiple deities, some hierarchical (hinduism, some buddhist sects, shinto et al)

[Nurvingiel]

Let's let Wikipedia settle this...

Atheism
Okay, you're right. According to Wikipedia much of Buddhism, Taoism, and Unitarian Universalism do not require theistic beliefs.

I did get what Agnosticism was though.

I agree with you now, and know a little more. This mini hijack wasn't really off topic, but it did disrupt the flow of the current discussion. Well, now we're back to Biblical submission (in Christianity).

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This mini hijack wasn't really off topic, but it did disrupt the flow of the current discussion. Well, now we're back to Biblical submission (in Christianity).

What is the current discussion - the discussion is THEOLOGY - not christianity or bibilical submission. I don't see any mini-hijack here.

[Rían]

OK, I have a cup of tea and one hour.
I will now severely curtail my exploring urges and make several posts to complete my answer to your question, Nurv (and others).

The first post(s) will continue with background info (ah, this is so hard - there's SO many interesting rabbit trails here!!)

The second post(s) will outline what Biblical submission is NOT, IMO.

The third post(s) will outline what it IS, IMO.

To save time, I won't (at this time) append verse references. I'll add those later.

SO - some background, starting in Genesis. I think this is extremely relevant to the subject because all the objections I've ever heard about Biblical submission are about how it demeans or devalues women in some way. (and I'm getting tired of always typing out "Biblical submission", so I'll just shorthand it for now with "submission".)

Let's look at the creation accounts in Genesis chpts. 1 and 2. Chpt. 1 is the brief chronological account of creation. Chpt. 2 is the re-telling with a shift of focus onto those things relevant to mankind.

Days 1 and 2 - We've got your basic working materials the first 2 days. ("working materials"?! Oy! what an understatement! The glory and wonder of light, in which rainbows are hidden for our pleasure!) (God - note to self - now where shall I unleash my first double-rainbow?)

Day 3 - separate earth and waters, and bring forth vegetation (God - note to self - Nurvi will fall in love with these glorious trees and study them thousands of years later - I better make some extra good ones! ).

Day 4 - forming the light into the sun and moon for beauty and seasons, etc. (God - note to self - can't wait until JRR Tolkien writes about the Eldar, the people of the stars, and RÃ*an falls in love with the stars and studies them!)

Day 5 - create sea creatures and birds (God - note to self - aren't birds amazing! Aren't whales cool! Aren't penguins a riot?!)

Day 6 - create land creatures (God - note to self - what a great job I did on that horse!)

later in day 6 - up until this point, God has declared everything "good". And then He creates Man - male and female - and calls it "very good!"

Please note a very important fact - God created Man in His image. "Man" here refers to the "species", as in both male and female, as is made clear later in the sentence with the word "them", and it's very clear in Hebrew because of the use of the plural verb along with it. And it's also very clear when Jesus in the gospels of Mark and Matthew references this event and specifically uses "male" and "female". So - the woman (along with man) is made in the very image of God, just like the man. And God blessed THEM, and gave THEM the task of managing the earth well. THEM.

[Rían]

Now we shift from kind of an outer-space viewpoint in Genesis 1 to an intimate, people-centered viewpoint in Genesis 2, for the Bible is written for the people that God loves. And God loves men, but He also loves women just as much.

Eve was created because something was not right without her. God saw that something was not good. His solution? Create Eve! And then He declares it "very good"! That's how important women are in God's eyes.

In Genesis 2 is that fun account of Adam, before Eve was created, hangin' out in Eden. God Himself declares that it is not good that man should be alone, and that He will make a "helpmeet" for him, which will be Eve. God makes the animals come before Adam, who eventually notices that they come in pairs and seem to be having an awful lot of fun ... (I love the way God works! Such a sense of humor!) So where's HIS mate? God declares that it's not good for him to be alone, and so He will make someone for him - often translated as a "helpmeet".

This word is difficult to translate. It's usually translated "helper" or "helpmeet". I can spend a lot of time on this, but I'm already spending a lot of time, so let me just point out this - we're NOT talking a cleaning lady here! Creation was not "very good" until Eve showed up!

As any translator would do, let's look at the word that's usually translated "helpmeet" here when talking about Eve. One translation that I like and I think is more accurate is "sustainer beside him". The best way to translate a word is to look at how it is used in other contexts. The word usually translated "helpmeet" is ezer kenegdo. "kenegdo" is "alongside, or opposite to, a counterpart". The word "ezer", the "help" part, is used only 20 other places in the entire Old Testament.

All 20 other times it is used, how is it used?

It is used to describe God Almighty Himself. And not only that, but God Almighty when we desperately need what He only can do.

Some examples (I'll italicize the "ezer" word):

"Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the Lord? He is your shield and helper and your glorious sword." Deut. 33:26,29

"I lift up my eyes to the hills - where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth." Ps 121:1-2

Most of the contexts are life and death, when God is your only hope. And THIS is the same word used by God Himself to describe the woman he is about to make to complete creation.

Women are created mighty by God Almighty. Frankly, we're amazing, wonderful beings!

(this is getting SOOOO long, but there's just SOOOO much that's relevant!)

Now really, really brief - we aren't told what the set-up was BEFORE the fall, except that they were both to preside over the earth and take care of it, but after the fall, Eve is told that her consequence is that her husband shall rule over her, and the pain in childbirth, etc. And Adam is told of his consequence related to work and how it will be difficult, etc.

[Nurvingiel]

Nooo RÃ*an is offline. I'm looking forward to the third installment in that trilogy. I was a bit confused about the second post. If it's outlining what (Biblical) submission is not... personally that's only going to help me if I first know what it is.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

What is the current discussion - the discussion is THEOLOGY - not christianity or bibilical submission. I don't see any mini-hijack here.

Yeah you're right. I only realized in the post prior to this one that it wasn't really hijacking the thread.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yeah you're right. I only realized in the post prior to this one that it wasn't really hijacking the thread.

Well it's easy to get confused when threads like this become so christian centric.

[Nurvingiel]

Well I did start the thread with questions on Christian theology, but I also said at the outset that this thread was to discusse the theology of any religion. (I just added "The Chosen" by Chiam Potok to the Theology thread booklist. )

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Well I did start the thread with questions on Christian theology, but I also said at the outset that this thread was to discusse the theology of any religion. (I just added "The Chosen" by Chiam Potok to the Theology thread booklist. )

Well to be specific you said ANGLECAN - however any religion was abl to be discussed. Why not discuss the ceremonies of the various religiions. Like I have gone to many different churches, from Greak Catholic to Roman Catholic to Pentecostal and Lutheran. I've been to various Jewish ceremonies (but at this point no muslim ceremonies).

I liek Roman Catholic the best. Although the chanting of the Greek Catholic mass is very nice too. I like the reservedness and "respectfulness" of the Catholic masses. I'm not into masses where there is screaming and shouting and stuff.

[Nurvingiel]

Spelling JD, spelling. I did say Anglican, but I didn't mean to exclude other denominations. I do want everyone to feel included.

I've been to a High Anglican service (I'm not really sure what High Anglican is), which apparently is a lot like the Roman Catholic service. There was incence burned, and I think something with bells. (The only reason I think there was bells is because this type of service is affectionately known as Smells n' Bells. ) That was five years ago. I don't remember very much, except that we did sing the psalms instead of saying them. I really enjoyed that, as well as the hymns. Singing has always been my favourite part of the service. Any excuse to sing I say.
I've also been to a few United church services, and one Catholic mass. The United church services were a lot like the regular Anglican service I attended. I think I went to a Lutheran one once too.

When I go back to Vancouver I want to visit the Buddhist temple there. (Or perhaps there's more than one.) There's one in Steveston I think and I'd like to go there.
There's one Buddhist temple in all of Sweden. I think it's in the middle of the woods, near Sollefteå. I'm not completely sure where it is. It was built in the 1700s (I think) in honour of the visiting Dalai Lama who liked the peacefulness of the northern forests more than Stockholm. I'm quite sketchy on the details - I got a lot of that off a Norrlands Guld beer bottle.

How much of this really belongs in the REAL debate thread for RELIGION? *sigh* The topics... they confuse me...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How much of this really belongs in the REAL debate thread for RELIGION? *sigh* The topics... they confuse me...

My point EXACTLY in the "what is it..." thread.

I don't have time to worry about my spelling at the moment.

[Nurvingiel]

What's Greek Catholic? Is that like Greek Orthodox?
What Jewish ceremonies have you attended?

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I liek Roman Catholic the best. Although the chanting of the Greek Catholic mass is very nice too. I like the reservedness and "respectfulness" of the Catholic masses. I'm not into masses where there is screaming and shouting and stuff.

I appreciate the respectfulness of the services I've attended as well. I went to one Catholic mass and it was very respectful. It was a memorial service for someone who had died.

Screaming and shouting? That doesn't sound like my cup of tea either. But to each his own.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't have time to worry about my spelling at the moment.

Obviously.
(That's how you got 9704 posts! )

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What's Greek Catholic? Is that like Greek Orthodox?

Greek Catholic is similar to Greek Orthodox. I used to always say that I was Roman/Greek Catholic, because my mother was Roman catholic and my father was Greek Catholicl. I was baptised Greek Catholic - which means I was confirmed when I was baptised (versus Roman Catholic where it's done when you are about 13), but I received first holy communion in the Roiman Catholic Church and I went to school all my life Roman Catholic. Generally weddings were Roman Catholic, but most funerals I;'ve attended have been Greek Catholic - including my mothers.

Basically I was brought up in both churches. Oh and Communion is different between Roman and Greek Catholic, whereas Roman Catholic uses unleaven bread and is served first before the wine, Greek Catholic uses a square cube of bread and is dipped right ito the wine and is served from a tiny spoon. So both the body and blood of christ are served together in the Greek Catholic Church, not seperately.

One thing - wakes are EXTREMELY long in a Greek Catholic ceremony. It's basically I think an hour and half and everything is chanted.

What Jewish ceremonies have you attended?

I've been to Sader dinners (passover) and Chanukah celebrations.

I appreciate the respectfulness of the services I've attended as well. I went to one Catholic mass and it was very respectful. It was a memorial service for someone who had died.

Screaming and shouting? That doesn't sound like my cup of tea either. But to each his own.

The Pentecostal Easter service I went to had a lot of shouting and crying and stuff. I don't like that. I like the respectful, solemn ceremony of the Roman catholic Church.

Obviously.
(That's how you got 9704 posts! )

I don't pay attention to my post count. I just post how I feel. But damn - I missed my 9666 post. I love the number 666.

[Rían]

To continue the long response to your question, Nurv -

That's enough of background for now. What did you think about that "ezer" word? Pretty cool, innit?!

To recap what it is NOT -

It is NOT saying the woman is any less than the man. The Bible refers to men and women as "co-heirs".

It is NOT saying for the woman to obey mindlessly. It's clear that everyone is responsible for and accountable for their own decisions.

And my hour is long gone, so I'll just really condense it here.

What it is, IMO, is a structure God has set up for the smoother operation of a marriage, and for a picture of the relationship between God and people.

The critical thing to realize in this discussion is that the verse about submission is NOT given by itself! The admonition to the husband, which immediately follows and is longer, is this: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..."

So how did Christ love the church, so that the husbands can obey this command? Well, He died to save her, and He served her, and He put her needs before His.

How can any discussion of submission exclude the complimentary command to the husband? I don't think it can; yet many people I've talked to aren't even aware of this command to the husband.

God never commands us to brainless obedience. Any wife that brainlessly submits to her husband is committing sin, IMO. Any wife that submits to something her husband asks her to do that she knows is WRONG is committing a sin, IMO. And of course if the husband asks her to do something he knows is wrong, he's sinning. And if he fails to take care of her and serve her and treat her with respect and honor and consider her opinion and thoughts and consider her a top priority, he's sinning, IMO.

I'll demonstrate how my husband and I operate in this area.

We're big-time campers. We camp at the beach, in the mountains. We camp at places with hook-ups, and we camp at our remote desert property in Arizona where there is NOTHING - not even water. We've been camping with a bunch of friends for 15 years now. We had a nice minivan, but by the third kid and a tent trailer and an electric scooter for our son that can't walk, it was really getting strained. I really liked the Chevy Suburban, and wanted one. Lots of my friends had them and loved them, and they're great camping cars. They can handle 5 people, a trailer, a dog, and an electric scooter in the back, like few other vehicles can.

So we started to discuss if we should buy one. Note - "WE". We talked it over and looked at the implications and weighted the options. My husband values my opinion, and I value his, and we talked and listened for a lot of hours over a period of several weeks. I went from really wanting it to thinking it probably wouldn't be a good idea because of the cost. Finally, we got to a point where we felt we had discussed everything that both of us had to say. Note - BOTH. And at that point, I said, "OK, we're done discussing - you decide." And he did - and we got the Surburban, mainly because he knew I really liked it.

I guess that's the essence - it is a CHOICE on my part to give the final decision in matters like this to him. It is a free-will CHOICE on my part, because I think it's a good idea. It's easier to do because of who my husband is - he really values my thoughts and opinions and seeks them out, and in fact praises my wisdom to other people *blush!* (as I praise his, too! He is a guy with great discernment and wisdom.) My fate is in my hands, and I choose to let him make the final decision in matters where we disagree what the best outcome is. Now often he will choose to let me decide, and often he will choose what I like over what he likes. There are very few times where I even need to "submit". But in cases like the Surburban - I mean, where can you go when you disagree? We could argue, we could pout, we could manipulate, we could divorce, we could sneak behind each other's back, we could keep discussing it and get angrier and angrier, one of could give in with resentment and bitterness, etc. etc. IMO it is the better way to CHOOSE to comply with the arrangement of submission on the wife's side and loving as Christ loves the church on the man's side. Other people may disagree - but I choose to decide for myself, and personally, I think it's a good idea. Practically, I can say it's worked GREAT over the years!

Submission is NOT being a doormat. Submission is NOT saying you're somehow less than your husband. The Bible states NONE of these things, altho people have stated them. Submission is being equal with your husband and simply choosing to let him make any final decisions about things that you are in disagreement about, as long as he is not saying to do something that is clearly against God's will (like murder someone!). IMO, God has designed men and women differently - they're both AMAZING beings, but different. And IMO the husband has been designed to take this role in a marriage, and the woman has been designed to be a partner with different strengths. (and I'm not saying that all men are the same and all women are the same, but I am saying that IMO, men are different than women.)

As I pointed out in the previous post, since the woman is described with the same adjective as God describes Himself, we're NOT talking some servant-girl thing here! IMO, a woman is a POWERFUL being, with the ability to do GREAT good and marvellous and wonderful things. And a woman has tremendous intelligence and insight, which her husband would be a FOOL to ignore. I don't have a problem giving my husband the final decision in some matters - I'm flexible, I can work with anything! This aspect of submission did, however, make me extremely careful in who I married, because I knew I would want him to be kind and loving and considerate and have excellent judgment!

That's a woefully inadequate treatment of the subject, but I'll just have to stop with that for now. Whatcha think?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Submission is being equal with your husband and simply choosing to let him make any final decisions about things that are clearly morally neutral.

How is this being equal if the husband gets to make the final decisions? I also think you are whitewashing this by sticking in the word "choosing". As far as I'm concerned - a marriage is WHERE both make the decision - and NO ONE has the final word on anything.

From what I see - you give in for the sake of peace. Marriage involves compromising. My mother gave up things, as did my father during the course of their marriage. But everything was basically "the families". My father in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM had the final word. And my parents had one of the best marriages I had ever seen.

[Rían]

(JD, I was editing that line for clarification while you were quoting it, so you might want to update it.)

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(JD, I was editing that line for clarification while you were quoting it, so you might want to update it.)

I choose to keep the quote as is - since you edited after I posted.

[Nurvingiel]

Prepare for the long post o'doom! Then maybe I'll study something before the exam. *anguished sigh*

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

:
:

One thing - wakes are EXTREMELY long in a Greek Catholic ceremony. It's basically I think an hour and half and everything is chanted.

Very interesting JD. Thanks for describing Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic. I don't have anything to add though except for the last part - I think the chanting would be very cool.
*files away useful information about JDs childhood*

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I've been to Sader dinners (passover) and Chanukah celebrations.

Did you go to a Sader dinner last weekend? (Oh my... Passover was last weekend right? )

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

The Pentecostal Easter service I went to had a lot of shouting and crying and stuff. I don't like that. I like the respectful, solemn ceremony of the Roman catholic Church.

I can see that for myself as well, even though I haven't attended a Pentecostal service or anything similar. Though I don't think you necessarily need solemnity for a respectful service, I think respect is key. For me, the meaning would be lost without respect.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't pay attention to my post count. I just post how I feel. But damn - I missed my 9666 post. I love the number 666.

I know you don't pay attention to it. I had to remind you about some other significant number you had reached. I think it was 8888. Well keep an eye out for 10K. That number is significant to people fond of base ten counting.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

To continue the long response to your question, Nurv -

That's enough of background for now. What did you think about that "ezer" word? Pretty cool, innit?!

Yes, that was interesting. Glad you got your tea and Genesis time in.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And my hour is long gone, so I'll just really condense it here.

Who wrote "Sorry my letter is so long, if I had more time it would be shorter?"

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What it is, IMO, is a structure God has set up for the smoother operation of a marriage, and for a picture of the relationship between God and people.

The critical thing to realize in this discussion is that the verse about submission is NOT given by itself! The admonition to the husband, which immediately follows and is longer, is this: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..."

So how did Christ love the church, so that the husbands can obey this command? Well, He died to save her, and He served her, and He put her needs before His.

How can any discussion of submission exclude the complimentary command to the husband? I don't think it can; yet many people I've talked to aren't even aware of this command to the husband.

Thanks for taking the time with the series of posts. However, what you have described (barring a few points) does not appear to be different from two people having a respectful marriage.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

God never commands us to brainless obedience. Any wife that brainlessly submits to her husband is committing sin, IMO. Any wife that submits to something her husband asks her to do that she knows is WRONG is committing a sin, IMO. And of course if the husband asks her to do something he knows is wrong, he's sinning. And if he fails to take care of her and serve her and treat her with respect and honor and consider her opinion and thoughts and consider her a top priority, he's sinning, IMO.

Being brainless is a sin!? People are screwed. Unless by "sin" you mean "something wrong" and not "something you're going to hell for". Then I agree with all of the above (quoted text).

However, I don't see why there needs to be specific gender roles. Though they seem blurred (which does make sense), why is "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..." only directed at the husbands? Why use the word "serve" interchangeably with "respect" as it seems to be (elsewhere in your post)? The two are not synonymous IMO. Why not just have "husbands and wives, respect each other".

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'll demonstrate how my husband and I operate in this area.

<snip>

I enjoyed the camping/suburban analogy. I snipped it because I don't have any specific responses. This does sound a bit like my parents though. They also love camping, and we got a Volvo 10 years ago that suited our needs well. It did have one fault though, that we discovered over the years - the brakes were just a little too light for all the abuse we heaped on it driving around the Rockies and (for my parents last summer) Arizona. My dad made the final decision on buying the Volvo, even though my mom had a lot of input. There's a variety of reasons why my dad probably made the final decision, but one is that he's very knowledgeable about cars.
Well, a few months ago our beautiful Volvo (it was a really really great car) had to be replaced. My mom made the final decision on a Toyota Highlander, though by dad had a lot of input. The main hope is that a car-based SUV will have the brakes to handle further camping trip abuses. Research is a strong point for both my parents.

What you described with your husband sounds a lot like my parents.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Submission is NOT being a doormat. Submission is NOT saying you're somehow less than your husband. The Bible states NONE of these things, altho people have stated them. Submission is being equal with your husband and simply choosing to let him make any final decisions about things that are clearly morally neutral. IMO, God has designed men and women differently - they're both AMAZING beings, but different. And IMO the husband has been designed to take this role in a marriage, and the woman has been designed to be a partner with different strengths. (and I'm not saying that all men are the same and all women are the same, but I am saying that IMO, men are different than women.)

I think that too much emphasis can be placed on how men and women are different. Yes we are, but we are individuals first. I think society places entirely too much emphasis on this point. I sure don't think you're a doormat RÃ*an.

JD brings up a good point though. Why should the husband always make the final decision?

And if this is not the case, how is Biblical submission different from respect in marriage?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I choose to keep the quote as is - since you edited after I posted.

I only told you as a courtesy, JD.

My final statement, made after I read it thru and edited it within a minute or two to make it more clear, is currently in my post.