Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You're correct that I was referring to this thread. It was not neccessary to merge it because it wasn't a long thread and only had 4 posts. I closed it because it relates to this very topic and if you feel the need to apologize, then you can do it here. I see no need to create new threads about existing topics that will only serve to invite bashing and flame wars.

I would not have opened the thread, had I thought it was this topic... can you merge it anyway? Or should I spend the time copying and pasting?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I would not have opened the thread, had I thought it was this topic... can you merge it anyway? Or should I spend the time copying and pasting?

If you feel that 4 posts including your opening post are that important to this topic, then by all means feel free to copy and paste.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Spock
OK, my idea is lets just do it.
We can easily bomb them back to the stoneage, it isn't that far to go. Israel alone has beaten the other countries more times than some can count, so we coordinate and get rid of them all, put in a large mall and parking for all.
..well that may be a tiny bit extreme but think of how much better off.....oh, never mind, I'm rambling again.

You forgot the little faucets in the parking lot for the oil. Just this funny little mental image I have sometimes...

[BeardofPants]

Congress shocked by new photos

Carl Hulse and Sheryl Gay Stolberg,_ New York Times
May 13, 2004ABUS0513

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Lawmakers who viewed hundreds of images of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners said Wednesday that the photographs were even more graphic than they had expected, and included pictures of forced sexual acts between male detainees, consensual sex between American soldiers, and a soldier posing with the body of a dead prisoner.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Republican Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell of Colorado, who emerged grim-faced from legislators-only screenings in the Capitol.

All afternoon, solemn senators and House members filed into secure rooms in the Capitol and House Rayburn Office Building to view about 1,800 images.

The lawmakers emerged shaken and aghast.

"What we saw is appalling," said the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, R-Tenn.

Lynndie England said her superiors gave her instructions.

Kcnc-tv/associated Press

"It's a sad day when Congress is called to see these photos," said a grim Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., the House minority leader.

Also Wednesday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld defended U.S. military interrogation techniques in Iraq against mounting complaints that the measures violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner.

Appearing before the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee, Rumsfeld said all authorized methods had been confirmed by Pentagon attorneys as complying with the Geneva Conventions on treatment of detainees.

Rumsfeld's contention was backed by Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who noted at the hearing that a published version of the approved list -- which includes a number of threatening, disruptive or stressful actions -- also includes an order that U.S. soldiers treat detainees humanely.

Myers said that putting detainees into uncomfortable "stress positions" for "an excessive amount of time that would hurt somebody" is not approved.

Asked by Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., about the U.S. use of sleep deprivation, dietary changes and stress positions, Myers said, "Every time we have an interrogation, we have an interrogation plan. Those are appropriate. And that's what we're told by legal authorities and by anybody that believes in humane behavior."

At the showing of photographs from Abu Ghraib, uniformed military officials presided over the viewings, flashing the images onto a large screen, legislators said. But the officials declined to answer questions or provide a narrative to explain the pictures. Members of Congress were instead given a document reminding them that the images were collected as part of a military investigation and are considered "active evidence."

Among the most shocking images, several said, was a video clip of a male detainee repeatedly banging into a cell door until he collapsed. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., said it appeared that the man had a rope lashed around his waist, and that someone was pulling him toward the door.

Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said he was particularly offended by a photograph in which "a prisoner was sodomizing himself."

"My conclusion is that that was probably coerced somehow," Franks said.

The explicit nature of the photographs left senators and House members deeply conflicted over whether the images should be made public. Some who previously favored a public release said they had changed their minds and were swayed by remarks from military personnel that to do so would violate the prisoners' right to privacy and protection from humiliation under international law.

Others, both Democrats and Republicans, said the images renewed their determination that the abuse must be fully investigated, and some said the pictures made them doubt that the mistreatment was limited to a handful of low-level soldiers.

"Some of it is clearly individuals acting in a rogue manner," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C. "Some of it has an elaborate nature to it that makes me very suspicious of whether or not others were directing or encouraging."

Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., agreed, saying, "It is impossible that this could have been carried out without the knowledge of higher-ups."

But on a day when the story of the beheading of an American civilian in Baghdad was also in the news, other lawmakers said the public should not lose sight of the brutality of terrorists. "The way he was beheaded once again makes graphically clear that the other side knows no mercy," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who called the pictures she viewed disgusting.

Not everyone attended the session. Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said he had not seen the pictures and saw no need to. Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., said he felt the same way.

Still unanswered is the question of why the photographs were taken. "I got the idea they were sort of taken in the nature of souvenirs," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, "because they were all taken from personal cameras. They did not appear to be organized."

Meanwhile, two more U.S. soldiers have been ordered to stand trial in the prisoner abuse scandal, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt announced Wednesday.

Sgt. Javal Davis, 26, of Maryland and Staff Sgt. Ivan L. (Chip) Frederick of Buckingham, Va., were ordered to undergo a general court-martial, Kimmitt said. He said the trial date and venue had not been set.

Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., goes on trial May 19 before a special court-martial in Baghdad, which cannot levy as severe a sentence as a general court-martial.

Davis has been charged with conspiracy to maltreat detainees, dereliction of duty for failing to protect detainees from abuse, maltreatment of detainees, rendering false official statements and assault.

Frederick has been charged with conspiracy to maltreat detainees, dereliction of duty for negligibly failing to protect detainees from abuse, maltreatment of detainees, and wrongfully committing an indecent act by watching detainees commit a sexual act.

In the charge sheet, Frederick was accused of having taken part in forcing a prisoner to stand on a box with wires placed on his hands -- a scene displayed in one of the photos that broke open the abuse scandal. The prisoner was told he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box, although the wires were not connected to a power source.

Humans are so horrible. Both the people responsible for torturing iraqi prisoners, and those sons of bitches responsible for the be-heading. ****ing monsters.

[Spock]

..news item continues....

....these same lawmakers did not find the photo's of Uncle Ted's car, underwater with MJK, to be offensive.

...nor did they find the photos of US soldiers being dragged through the streets of Somalia, offensive enough to stay and finish the mission there.

...nor did they find it offensive that Jimmy Carter went to talk to Fidel against US interests and policy

..nor did they find it offensive that our military is being killed daily and civilian contractors being dragged through the streets and hung on bridges

....sigh....and they can't even get the trains to run on time.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
JD is a respected poster Radagast. It just depends on who it is. He also has his own style, which I find quite refreshing.

i might switch a few adjectives ... but i agree wholeheartedly

i heard an interesting comment on this the other day... the speaker, who's name i don't remember, described the view that had developed in america since the first gulf war... people started to believe that a "clean war" was possible... low civilian casualties, almost no american deaths, a quick resolution, etc.

if there is something positive to come from this, it is a reinforcement of the fact that no war is just... that war brings out the worst aspects of humanity... and should always be avoided at all costs... even if those costs are sometimes hard to swallow

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Spock
..nor did they find it offensive that our military is being killed daily and civilian contractors being dragged through the streets and hung on bridges

Yeah yer right. There was great celebration out of congress when that happened. I must have forgotten.

Shall we file this one under the: No talking about bad things americans do unless its those damn liberal americans file?

[Spock]

...filed accordingly......

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
If you feel that 4 posts including your opening post are that important to this topic, then by all means feel free to copy and paste.

Ok... fine. However, you seemed to think it was important enough to: [list=a][*]post a response yourself (i.e., the "rant") and; [*]closed the thread because you felt the discussion paralleled Radagast's thread. [/list=a]

[Ruinel]

I started a new thread, which I thought was a new topic and different from the original intent of this thread. However, SGH feels they are the same topic. I'm going to copy and paste (as she suggested) the relevant posts from that thread here.

POST #1. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't believe any Iraqis visit this message board, that I know of. However, I've been following along with the news of the abuses to Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib prison.

I will not speak here for the Brits. They can open their own thread if they wish, or bury their heads.. that's their own choice. I don't care. But I feel compelled to speak out.

I am personally disgusted at what has been allowed to go on at the prison. I can NOT be convinced that SOMEONE higher up was unaware of what was happening. I am so upset, I'm nearly in tears over it! How could ANYONE sit by and allow this to happen? Are we not human anymore? Are THEY not human anymore? What is wrong with this [edited] world!?!

Some of the abuse was done by American military personel. Some of the abuse was done by contract prison workers (who may or may not have been Americans). Either way, I know that a few people down at the bottom will pay for it, and those that allowed or encouraged it by looking the other way WILL NOT! And I am repulsed by it!!!!

Words can not convey my anger, nor my sorrow for those that suffered the humiliation. I don't care who the victims were... what I care about is that the American public was told that we were going over to Iraq to help the people of Iraq... that we were freeing them of an abusive, sadistic, ruthless leader who tortured his own people... that we were better than Saddam Huissain... we were going to help, not hurt....
.....................LIES LIES LIES!!!!!!!!!!

I am personally ASHAMED!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ruinel]

POST #2. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by Ragnarok
I'm not suprised something like this was occuring, we can thank George Bush for getting us involved in this mess to begin with. And this isn't the first time George Bush has misled the American people.

[Ruinel]

POST #3. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by jerseydevil
I have nothing to be sorry for - therefore IO'm not issuing an empty apology, the only one's who should be sorry - are the ones who did it.

As for your comment Ragnarok - George Bush didn't miuslead us - or were you one of the ones who only heard about the WMD reason?

I can tell you how I feel after seeing how that person was executed. if anyone wants to see it - let me know. You don't want to know what I think we should do to ALL the Middle East right now either. You call what the US soldiers did torture? That was child's play compared to what Hussein did and Al Qaeda does. I'm not condoning the soldiers action - what they did was outrageous - but it is NOTHING comprared to what the Middle East does that the media whitewashes.

Look at how the palestinians are even withholding jewish soliers body parts. They actually went out and collected the body parts of jewish soldiers - so they can't be buried in the jewish tradition. the palestinians are the ones who always claim "religious perseciution" every chance they get and claim that they're religion isn't respected.

[Ruinel]

POST #4. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
JD, can you not feel one ounce of shame for such a horrible situation as this?

Ru- hear hear.

we went in there to free these people. as much as i am opposed to this illegitimate war, there is nothing i can do about it now. So i can only hope that we can be as civilised and diplomatic as wartime allows us.
but with these recent events it is hard to even hope that.
we went in to free these people and we do this by capturing 'suspects', putting bags over thier heads, stripping them down and making them do horrible, awful things. all the while, we are taking pictures and laughting about it.
(over 50% of the 'suspects' are actually believed to be innocent after the fact -JD, i got that stat from my right-wing newspaper, just so you know it's not from micheal moore or punkvoter, or anything remotely 'liberal')

How can i not feel sorry?
Even if i am not the one who is out there doing this, it is my country who has pushed it's way in there.

[Ruinel]

POST #4. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You know what I'm sorry for and ashamed of? Americans that don't stand by their country and support its military and government, but yet have the audacity to live here, take advantage of the freedoms this country has fought and died to give you, and then critisize it at every turn. No one in this world is perfect. The US is not an innocent angel that has committed no wrong, but it is far less barbaric and more civilized then most and if war is something the world doesn't want, then other countries need to learn to wipe their own behinds instead of depending on the US to do it for them, while they critisize us all the while. So quit the whining and stand up for your freedom. And I say if you are an American, then be proud of it, and stop acting like a wimpy weakling that owes the world an apology for the actions of a few idiots, who btw, are being punished, but it sure doesn't seem to be enough for everyone. If you don't like it here, then get the hell out of Dodge. I'm so sick of this. If I didn't have to moderate, I wouldn't even read these ridiculous American slamming threads. ICK!

Now that I've had my little rant, let me remind you that there is already a thread discussing this crap. Closing.

[Ruinel]

The end.

Ah.. and now I can respond the the resulting posts.

Responses coming up....

[Radagast]

Originally posted by Ruinel
POST #4. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You know what I'm sorry for and ashamed of? Americans that don't stand by their country and support its military and government, but yet have the audacity to live here, take advantage of the freedoms this country has fought and died to give you, and then critisize it at every turn. No one in this world is perfect. The US is not an innocent angel that has committed no wrong, but it is far less barbaric and more civilized then most and if war is something the world doesn't want, then other countries need to learn to wipe their own behinds instead of depending on the US to do it for them, while they critisize us all the while. So quit the whining and stand up for your freedom. And I say if you are an American, then be proud of it, and stop acting like a wimpy weakling that owes the world an apology for the actions of a few idiots, who btw, are being punished, but it sure doesn't seem to be enough for everyone. If you don't like it here, then get the hell out of Dodge. I'm so sick of this. If I didn't have to moderate, I wouldn't even read these ridiculous American slamming threads. ICK!

Now that I've had my little rant, let me remind you that there is already a thread discussing this crap. Closing.

Soldiers are ambassadors. The American Soldiers responsible should be subjected to the harshest military discipline allowable- they should shot by firing squad. You say that 'they are being punished', but does the American military allow death as a punishment? The British Army does.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Radagast
Soldiers are ambassadors. The American Soldiers responsible should be subjected to the harshest military discipline allowable- they should shot by firing squad. You say that 'they are being punished', but does the American military allow death as a punishment? The British Army does.

They are being court marshaled and will do prison time. However, I agree with JD, that they should be tried for treason. They have jeopardized the entire mission along with the safety of coalition forces. Treason is punishable by death.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by JerseyDevil
POST #3. An American Apology to Iraqis
I have nothing to be sorry for - therefore IO'm not issuing an empty apology, the only one's who should be sorry - are the ones who did it.

My apology was not empty. The one's who did it, AND the ones who condoned it, should be punished as well.

...I can tell you how I feel after seeing how that person was executed. if anyone wants to see it - let me know. You don't want to know what I think we should do to ALL the Middle East right now either. You call what the US soldiers did torture? That was child's play compared to what Hussein did and Al Qaeda does. I'm not condoning the soldiers action - what they did was outrageous - but it is NOTHING comprared to what the Middle East does that the media whitewashes.

Why do you feel that these acts need to be compared? What is important is if you feel these acts are humane, justified, or ethical. Personally, I feel they are NOT! I want to be able to hold my head up, as an American, and be able to say that we do not conduct ourselves in such a barbaric manner.

It doesn't matter what others do... what matters to me is what WE do, and how if we conduct ourselves in a civilized manner.

Look at how the palestinians are even withholding jewish soliers body parts. They actually went out and collected the body parts of jewish soldiers - so they can't be buried in the jewish tradition. the palestinians are the ones who always claim "religious perseciution" every chance they get and claim that they're religion isn't respected.

I no more condone their behavior any more than I condone the behavior of my fellow Americans at the prison. I find no excuse reasonable for what happened.

[Ruinel]

POST #4. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
....we went in there to free these people. as much as i am opposed to this illegitimate war, there is nothing i can do about it now. So i can only hope that we can be as civilised and diplomatic as wartime allows us.
but with these recent events it is hard to even hope that.
we went in to free these people and we do this by capturing 'suspects', putting bags over thier heads, stripping them down and making them do horrible, awful things. all the while, we are taking pictures and laughting about it.
(over 50% of the 'suspects' are actually believed to be innocent after the fact -JD, i got that stat from my right-wing newspaper, just so you know it's not from micheal moore or punkvoter, or anything remotely 'liberal')

How can i not feel sorry?
Even if i am not the one who is out there doing this, it is my country who has pushed it's way in there.

A very good point, LT. Now that America is there with the coalition forces, there is nothing we can do about that. We CAN do something about the way we conduct "business" over there, though.

I feel very frustrated by the whole situation. Where is the new Iraqi army? Why aren't they defending themselves? June 30th is coming up... will we hand Iraq over to the people of Iraq? I certainly hope so.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Why do you feel that these acts need to be compared? What is important is if you feel these acts are humane, justified, or ethical. Personally, I feel they are NOT! I want to be able to hold my head up, as an American, and be able to say that we do not conduct ourselves in such a barbaric manner.

I don't think it's a matter of condoning the acts of any inhumane treatment by any one group Ru. What is so irritating though is that the outrage for each act is hardly equal. So if the reactions of outrage and disgust at an inhumane act isn't treated equally, then it isn't going to be counted or measured equally as cruel.