12-02-2005, 02:03 AM | #221 | ||
Word Santa Claus
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Each person is biologically different from each other person, in varying degrees. I do not believe that there is a legitimate justification for denial of liberty in the decision of who to spend your life with under legal protections in the claim that women and men are more different than two men. It cannot be child-bearing, as sterile people and women past menopause can marry; it cannot be a state vision of an appropriate relationship, because that relationship exists with or without the state. The only question is whether the state will grant the legal protections. Quote:
Also, have you ever been to a good college party? You'll see enough sexually suggestive behaviour on the part of entirely heterosexual people there to put you in serious doubt that it is possible for homosexual people to do more.
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12-02-2005, 04:50 AM | #222 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I'm sure that there are heterosexuals like that and worse. I'm positive. It's just that in my personal life, I've seen sexually suggestive garb and behavior exclusively (and strongly) in homosexuals, though I've known far more heterosexuals. Quote:
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There may be some children also who have the maturity to marry. It happens in other cultures, at very young ages. However, a law exists because the vast majority of the cases are different. This would be the same with heterosexual and homosexual relationships. They would have different kinds of benefits and rules, because they are naturally different relationships. Quote:
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I'm not saying that homosexuals are similar to minors. I'm simply saying that the legal issue is similar- they both relate to the biological state of people's brains. With minors, marriage isn't allowed because the brains are not mature enough yet. With homosexual adults, unions probably (and we need studies for this) shouldn't be given the same status as marriage because the brains of the people involved in homosexual relationships (and brains command every aspect of the relationship) are different from the brains of the people involved in heterosexual relationships. Quote:
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12-02-2005, 05:03 AM | #223 | |||
Elf Lord
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Hang on, that's inaccurate, I do know one such heterosexual in college. He's still the minority in my experience, however .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-02-2005, 11:23 AM | #224 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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if a single man buys a house and shortly thereafter finds a roomate who lives there for the next twenty years and pays rent which helps pay the mortage, there would be legal documents involved (a rental contract) that would keep the renter from claiming any of the gains from appreciation if the house was sold... in contrast, if the man renting failed to do the proper paperwork, the renter would have a pretty strong case if they went to court and decided to sue for part of the profits yet, if the same single man marries a woman who doesn't even hold a job and divorces six months later, she could make all kinds of claims against the property and this is just one example... my point, the "civil marriage contract" as it currently exists is simply too broad... simply marrying someone, no matter how short that marriage is, trumps a whole host of rights most individuals have in our society... this is exactly why you see so many endless pre-nuptial agreements these days if the goal is to reduce court cases, don't give so many rights just because someone decides one day to get married... deal with each issue case by case... children via paternity instead of marriage... property via who you choose to share it with as opposed to a purely civil agreement like "marriage" the problem with "marriage law" is that it assumes a reality that no longer, and will never again exist, in our society... that a man and a woman marry at a very young age... the man works, the woman cares for the home... and they stay together for the rest of their lives
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12-02-2005, 12:31 PM | #225 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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If statistics showed that blacks are more likely to commit crimes than white people, wouldn't it be reasonable to give more severe punishments to black criminals? I think NOT. We always have to look at every individual case, otherwise discrimination is inevitable. This works only if the law is the same for everyone. It's the same thing with marriages. The fact remains that all marriages are unique and it would be silly to separate different kinds of marriages. You can't divide marriages into only two groups, like heterosexual and same-sex marriages. If you were to put marriages into groups, there would be one unique group for every individual marriage. I find it all ridiculous, every type of marriage should have the same laws applied to them. Every marriage should be equal before the law. Anything else would be discrimination. On a side note: You say gays are more likely to divorce. Is that reason enough to apply different marriages laws for them? Now if gays were the only ones to divorce there would be a point in it, but heterosexuals divorce too. And it's common. So since both heterosexuals divorce a lot and gays divorce a lot, that should be one reason why the same laws should apply to both examples. Lief, I guess we're not talking laws like tax cuts here (if a heterosexual couple got a tax cut because they're man and wife whereas a gay couple didn't get the cut, how would one defend this?). What laws do you think should be different for gay couples and man-and-wife couples? Quote:
Every child can marry after they pass that certain age and it is the same for all children. Different marriage laws don't apply to different children, once they grow up. The laws are always the same.
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12-02-2005, 12:34 PM | #226 |
Word Santa Claus
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Lief, children cannot, cannot be a parallel to homosexuals in this case. The law is not different for a general "biological difference in their brains" - it is different because those brains have not developed. We don't have different laws for a C student in a state college and Stephen Hawking - they have a major biological difference between their brains, but because they are both adults with developed brains, we give them the same laws. Men and women live under the same laws. There is a world of difference between an un or underdeveloped brain and one that has developed in a different way from others. The one is a basis for legal differentiation... the other is not. There's an old Victorian book I had to read for history called something like "Children, Idiots, Criminals and Women: Is the Classification Sound" about the categories of people who had different laws from the generality during that time period. The first two of those have undeveloped brains; they still have different laws. The third are disqualified by their illegal acts, which are known to carry that penalty. The fourth, however, was only differentiated because they were felt to be biologically different... and I think it is instructive that it is THAT one that has not stood the test of time.
I really must question how generally applicable your experiences are if you are claiming to know no (or only one) heterosexuals who exhibit sexually suggestive behaviour. It's all over our popular culture, it's omnipresent at every university and high school I have attended or visited, and there are statistics out there for it (check out somewhere the % of American teens who have had sex before their majority). If you want to say that divorce rate figures are inflated by serial monogamists, you must admit that any figures you have for homosexual relationships are skewed by their equivalent... and I still deny the validity of saying "homosexuals break up... therefore homosexual marriages will break up" because the exact same thing could be said about heterosexuals if we didn't have the marriage statistics (and, actually, given the divorce rate, with the marriage statistics). PS The Constitution of the United States requires that "no State shall...deny the equal protection of the law" to any "person born or naturalized in the United States" (Amendment XIV). You need a very high threshold of public interest to create an exception. I cannot see how a ban on homosexual marriage meets that threshold.
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12-02-2005, 04:25 PM | #227 |
the Shrike
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I've lost count of the gay couples that I know, and I'm really struggling to think of any that act any different from the hetero couples I know. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 committed lesbian relationships, and one homo one. There's no glaring ****ing symbol on their heads that denotes them as any different from your "norm". Feh. I am disgusted that you (lief) are implying that homos are sluts, and heteros are not, and as for deviants? Don't get me started. I'd hate to think that I'd be a deviant cos of some narrowminded view of some uptight virgin population.
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12-02-2005, 09:29 PM | #228 | |||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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The only reason for the age law is the mental maturity. Why do you think a magical marriage age was set up? There must be a reason. Many marriage laws are generalizations. For example, the divorce law is a generalization. It isn't appropriate for all couples. Some people divorce very often, and the property splitting law is a maddening hornet to them. The law is a generalization. The marriage age law is a generalization based on biology. Several of the current marriage laws were set up with a certain type of society and a certain type of biology in mind. The society has changed some, and that does mean there may be problems existing in current laws that perhaps should be smoothed aside. I don't know. But the biology difference should certainly be examined before we say that we will treat significantly biologically different relationships the same as another sort of relationship. There should be hard evidence and visible reason that the marriage laws should be changed to include homosexual couples. This is simply because of the obvious difference in biology. If these studies are taken, and you all are correct about homosexual relationships being no different than heterosexual relationships, then the studies should turn out that way. The studies would be an argument for whatever side they end up supporting. However, because of the obvious biological differences between men and women, we should at least take the studies to find out what we can. Quote:
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As regards men and women living under the same laws, I am not entirely sure that this is appropriate. There are general, broadly acknowledged differences between men and women that exist because of differences in gender. Perhaps if our laws were somewhat (I don't know to what extent) modified, they could better take into account these differences. I haven't thought about this until you just brought it up, but it does make some sense to me. Quote:
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BeardofPants, I'm sorry that my views have disgusted you. I hope that I never become guilty of the sin against intellect of choosing to believe something based on wishes rather than evidence. As I am unwilling to intellectually defile myself in that way, there really is no help for our difference here, and no remedy. I hope that this difference does not damage our overall good relations . ~Lief
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12-03-2005, 08:01 AM | #229 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Just a quick reply since I'm in a hurry
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It is exactly the same thing with same-sex marriages. If such relationships are more likely to end in a divorce, it is not the homosexuality that is the key factor responsible. There can be so many different things involved when a couple break up. We can't judge all gay couples alike because of their sexual preferance, just as we can't judge all blacks alike because they happen to have the same skin colour. If blacks were more violent, it wouldn't be because their pigments make them violent. If gays were more likely to divorce, it wouldn't be because of their sexuality. Animals are a more homogenous group. The animals don't behave like humans because of their biology, like you say. With animals, their biology is relevant whereas in the case of gay couples, their homosexuality is not relevant if they divorce (and, if blacks were indeed more likely to be violent, their skin colour would not be relevant either). No offense intended to blacks! I just made up an example to prove a point.
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12-03-2005, 12:16 PM | #230 |
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Honostly Lief... blacks and animals now?? You really need to work on your examples...
What you continually fail to appreciate is that you are approaching the issue of gay marriage different from any other. They DONT require silly tests and studies to determine if they should allow females to vote. Or asians to drive. Or Christians to breed. They dont even ban smoking based on clear and countless studies showing how horribly bad it is for you... So WHY on EARTH would you isolate only gays and gay marriage for your super special testing procedures to determine if it should be allowed? If you ask me this simply is an elaborate front to somehow separate gay marriage from any other social concept. And thats an incredible double standard if you ask me.
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12-03-2005, 07:52 PM | #231 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Oh - my - god. No he didn't. Lief, if I were in the same room with you at the moment you made this awful, unbelievably crass, ignorant, and asinine comment/comparison, I'd beat the sh*t out of you. And no, I'm not black.
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12-03-2005, 08:50 PM | #232 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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C'mon Lotesse, give him a break. I think Lief rather made a poor example than an actual comparison here.
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12-03-2005, 09:52 PM | #233 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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My only reason for bringing up animals was to say once again that the state of brains impacts what laws are set up in our society. Different laws apply to the people of the US, if general differences in brains can be seen. Animals have different rights according to law than I do. For example, drivers' licenses will not be given to chimpanzees. Is this because of cultural differences? No, it is because of the biological state of its mind and my mind. Biological difference in brains is used already to create different laws for different people or creatures. This applies to me and an animal, and me and a child, and me and an insane person. This is not to say that homosexuals are similar to any of those. It is merely to say that biology is taken into account in the making of laws. Men and women have significantly different brains from one another. Thus, it makes sense that laws would be different for man-woman and man-man or woman-woman relationships. Laws should take into account these significant biological differences. This is not an argument that homosexual relationships are less than heterosexual ones. It is merely an argument that they are strongly different, and there is a precedent for the making of laws in the cases of such differences. Thus, studies are in order. Please understand, I am not attacking homosexuals or lesbians here. They certainly can be lovely people. Quote:
We know from biology as well as constant evidence that Asians are just the same, mentally, as anyone else. Thus, from biology there is absolutely no reason to differentiate between them and people of other skin pigmentation. Your statement about Christians breeding is irrelevant, because that is not a matter of biology but culture. Your point about smoking is probably a poor choice, as it is still being strongly debated. For three of your examples, there already is massive evidence supporting that the groups should be treated the same as everyone else. One of your examples then is irrelevant, and the other is still being debated. So this wouldn't be "isolating" homosexuals. Lotesse, I promise you, I intended no offense whatsoever against blacks. I have not said they are like animals. I have not said they are exceedingly violent. I have not intentionally said anything against them. They are people no different from you and me, and deserve full respect. I have good friends who are black. Racism sickens me. I am positive that I have said nothing in any of my posts that attacks blacks.
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12-04-2005, 12:46 AM | #234 | |
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12-04-2005, 12:51 AM | #235 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 02:20 AM | #236 |
Word Santa Claus
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And I think it's the brilliance of our system to realize that once you conceded one difference you must concede them all: and that therefore everyone should have "equal protection" under the law.
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12-04-2005, 02:58 AM | #237 |
Elf Lord
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We have already seen several examples where biological differences are noted and accounted for by law.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-04-2005, 03:15 AM | #238 |
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Biological differences of a different degree and kind.
But that's not really going to get us anywhere.
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12-04-2005, 03:59 AM | #239 | |
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But I guess we may have rather reached an impasse.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-04-2005, 01:57 PM | #240 | |||||
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But let me play devils advocate here. I could make some great arguments for females not being allowed in a wide variety of professions based simply on the fact that men have different hormonal levels then females and that females tend to utilize certain aspects of their brain that men do not and vice versa. In fact the differences are so glaring that we shouldn’t allow females to engage in certain activities. Of course the reverse argument holds true. Wed have to ban males from other more female designed activities. Like anything involving communication since studies show that females have much greater communication skills then males. Studies also show that females aren’t mathematical thinkers (remember Harvard?) so we will need to ban them from any occupation that requires a strong grounding in mathematics. And of course get them all out of the military now. They don’t have enough testosterone and all those fun aggressive male hormones. Clearly males were designed for all activities like that right? Quote:
And Im waiting for your “but that’s just cultural” argument… Quote:
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