11-20-2002, 02:52 AM | #221 | ||
Elf Lord
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Here's the quote I'm assuming you're using, Cirdan. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
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Permitting evil and turning it to good doesn't impinge Ilúvatar's character, for he can see all ends. It also doesn't imply that he's involved in committing this evil. Morgoth's treachery was forseen, and because of that, Ilúvatar was able to use it for his own purposes. Everything is spread before him, and everything he turns to righteousness. Commanding events however in this way doesn't have to disrupt free will at all. Not once in any part of any of the books do I see Ilúvatar or any of the Valar purposely use their power to make others do what they please. However, I do see frequent times where Ilúvatar punishes evil without disrupting free will. Frodo's casting the Ring into Mount Doom was sufficient proof of Ilúvatar's willingness to use people to accomplish his ends, and his using the Valar to punish Morgoth. Notice that he only did the latter action after Earendil made his voyage and asked for forgiveness for the Noldor. Repentence was the key to Ilúvatar's punishing Morgoth, just as through a humble person he was able to punish Sauron. Not through any means of forcing people to do as they pleased were these things done; Frodo and Earendil had their own choices to make, and made them. Things can be prophesied, but never did the prophesy being fulfilled happen in ways that wouldn't have happen naturally. These events weren't "forced," any more than any of the other events that happened in the books were forced. |
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11-20-2002, 02:58 AM | #222 |
The Insufferable
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I found an interesting quote today; it's even in quenyan!
*rë ilqua yéva nótina "When all will be counted." I found it as the citation in Ardalambion's quenya wordlist, but it seems to refer to the judgement at the end of Arda. If that is the case, it would seem to indicatethat not all things have been 'counted' or decided, and that one day they will be.
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11-20-2002, 03:16 AM | #223 |
Elf Lord
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That seems contradictory to other quotes in the Silmarillion, unless you take it as a Day of Judgement type of thing. What's the context?
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11-20-2002, 04:48 AM | #224 | ||||
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When God created the universe, he was not creating it in the way that you or I can really understand. We get teh impression that he 'created' it on the first day, and let it progress in a linear manner related to him, and that he has to wait for us to make our choice. But it would be more correct to say that he created the entire history of the universe, from beginning to end, all in one short burst, and that our free will is simply that we choose what we do at any given point in that history. I shall try and make it planar by using an illustration. Compare history to a line on paper, and yourself to a dot which travels from left to right on the paper, forming that line. Better yet, imagine a series of points forming that line. Each point decides where the point immediately to the right will be, but it is only aware of the points to the left. Following me? Now, the line has already been formed, and I, looking at the paper, can see all of it in a glance. I can also write a formula which describes the influence that each point has on the point to the right (For example X=Sin(y+free will) ) But that doesn't in any way force the point to make a given decision. I still have no control over that, I simply see the outcome. Part of the problem in expressing this is that god doesn't exist in time like we do, and so in one way god knows everything before it happens, but in another way he doesn't know anything until it happens. An we, well, we're like a point somewhere in the middle of the line. Even though the line is really already complete, we can only see the stuff that comes before us. And even though the line has a determinite shape, that shape is a result of the choice we make at this junction. Quote:
I think perhaps it could be expressed this way: Melkor wanted to change the music from it's stated purpose to his own purpose. But Iluvatar clearly says that none can alter the music in his despite. Does this mean that Eru wanted Melkor to change the music, or that melkor failed to alter the music significantly from it's original form? I think it's the latter. I think that, despite anything that evil men (or gods) do to resist, things will work out the way they were meant to. I do not think this shows that the music was designed to be rebelled againast, but simply that it was designed to work as intended even if resistance does occur. Does that make sense? Quote:
An omnipotent being could make every decision that is ever made throughout history. And yet we have free will. How is that? He chooses to allow us, as limited creatures, to make some decisions. We may not make the best decisions, but for some reason he seems to be of the opinion that having us make the right decision in our limited fashion is better than him making the perfect decision for us, and worth the risk of us making the wrong decision. Quote:
ulmo didn't go to turgon directly because, by this time, melkor was gaining the upper hand, and had actually driven ulmo's power from certain water areas in beleriand. Unfortunately, the area around gondolin was one of these, and so Ulmo couldn't get through with a message,-melkor was interfering. The ainur could have cast melkor down themselves-they had done it twice before. But both of those times the struggle was catastrophic, and destroyed or reshaped most of the world. (There's a reason they called it the war of wrath). Remember, when the Valar eventually do attack Morgoth, they end up destroying Beleriand. It comes down to morgoth's ring-and action against him will have to destroy the very earth.
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11-20-2002, 05:01 AM | #225 |
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Lief:
That quote is from Firiels Song, which is an incomplete primitive Qenya work by tolkien. The full text is: Ilu Ilúvatar en káre eldain a f*rimoin The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals ar antaróta mannar Valion: númessier. and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West Toi aina, mána, meldielto - enga morion: They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one. talantie. Melko Mardello lende: márie. He is fallen. Melko [Melkor] has gone from Earth: it is good. En kárielto eldain Isil, hildin Úr-anar. For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun; Toi *rimar. Ilyain antalto annar lestanen which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts Ilúvatáren. Ilu vanya, fanya, eari, of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, i-mar, ar ilqa *men. Írima ye Númenor. the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor. Nan úye sére indo-ninya s*men, ullume; But my hearth resteth not here for ever, ten s* ye tyelma, yéva tyel ar i narqelion, for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading, *re ilqa yéva nótina, hostainiéva, yallume: when all is counted, and all numbered at last, ananta úva táre fárea, ufárea! but yet it will not be enough, not enough. Man táre antáva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar What will the Father, O Father, give me enyáre tar i tyel, *re Anarinya qeluva? in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth? Lovely. Sheer Bliss.
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11-20-2002, 11:09 AM | #226 |
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"When God created the universe, he was not creating it in the way that you or I can really understand. "
"This is rather difficult to explain, but I will try." really? then how is it that you understand? Eru says that 'none can alter the music in my despite'. That's 'in Contemptuous defiance or disregard'. or "in defiance of another's power or inclination. " no it doesnt say that, ill quote it one more time for you: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." all the themes played have they're "uttermost" source in eru, even morgoth's. and none can alter it, not even melkor, even though he thinks he is altering it, he really isnt. in my opinion, free will is always compromised with the inclusion of an all powerful deity. sorry if that offends you.
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11-20-2002, 12:00 PM | #227 | |||
The Insufferable
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Which is what I repeated originally. But you mention all themes having their uttermost source in Eru. Isn't free will the ultimate satisfaction of this? Because if the ability to do evil is part of the gift of free will (which is from Eru), then you aren't forced into the somewhat indefensible position that eru really wanted Evil in the first place, and was just being arbitrary. Quote:
That said, there are very few opinions you could have that would genuinely offend me. Even if I found your manner offensive I would have respect for your ideas. And so far all parties have been eminently civilized, which speaks very highly of you all.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 11-20-2002 at 12:02 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 12:55 PM | #228 | ||
Elf Lord
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I thought I already gave you, MasterMothra and Cirdan, a workable alternate explanation for that passage, which actually fits better with the observed evidence. Your current theory, that Ilúvatar is responsible for evil because all themes come from him, totally goes against all observed evidence throughout the books.
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Morgoth attempts to do evil, but because his actions were already mapped out from the beginning, his theme from Ilúvatar, he couldn't defeat Ilúvatar. His arrogance, power and knowledge were all for naught, for Ilúvatar could use them for his own purpose. Morgoth's evil would create the better final Arda Remade. Ilúvatar isn't the one who does evil, and evil is against his nature. Yet because Melkor's theme is in Ilúvatar and his natural choices known by Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar can command and do as he pleases with Melkor's theme. Ilúvatar didn't change Melkor's natural choices at all, and he didn't make them either good or bad. We've already given many, many examples, none of which have yet been shown unworkable, as to how free will and foreknowledge can coexist. Morgoth's music is against Ilúvatar's theme, but Ilúvatar knew it would be and planned to use it for an even better thing. Therefore, it is against Ilúvatar's will and design, while at the same time, because of Ilúvatar's being all powerful, it is part of his design and is one of his themes, that he is using for a greater purpose. I know that these things aren't specifically stated in the passage, but they are an alternate interpretation that works, and that fits the observed evidence far better than your interpretation, MasterMothra and Cirdan, that Ilúvatar created Melkor evil. Quote:
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-20-2002 at 12:58 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 12:59 PM | #229 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for sending that passage, Wayfarer. You're right, it really is lovely .
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11-20-2002, 01:11 PM | #230 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-20-2002, 01:21 PM | #231 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks from me, too, Wayfarer, for F*riels Song. She is such a complex character. The song is really lovely.
And I have a slightly different take on the oft-quoted "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." I would back it up a level - not concentrate on the actual discordant theme that Melkor tried to force in, but the fact that Melkor wouldn't even be around to even have the chance of forcing it in if Ilúvatar hadn't created him. Rather like the story about God and the scientist - The scientist says to God, "hey, God, we don't need you anymore! Look at all of our advances, our knowledge - you can just retire quietly somewhere and leave us alone." God answers "You think you don't need me? Well, let's compare our skill - let's have a man-making contest!" scientist - "ok, GO!" *starts gathering stuff* God - "oh, no you don't! You go get your OWN dirt!"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-20-2002, 03:15 PM | #232 |
Elven Warrior
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"We have given many examples as to why this isn't the case, and so far you haven't responded to them. Would you, please?"
"if god has seen the future, do we have the free will to change it?" that is as simple as i can make it. i understand everyones posts and what they are saying, and i respect them, they are good. but that doesnt mean i have to agree. i used to be a practicing christian myself, and i can see what your talking about in that perspective, but i do not share that perspective anymore. i dont trust in a god that has never been there for me, so i learned to trust in myself and i am a lot better off. that may not work for you, but it does for me. i'm not saying i'm right and your wrong, because i dont think that anyone can truely know. either in tolkiens works or with religeon, we will see when we die, or not. i think that tolkiens works are a great topic of discussion, and i like this site for the most part, but all i can do is tell you why i think like that. if you understand then great, if not then im sorry.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-20-2002, 03:38 PM | #233 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
edit- BTW, be sure to read the preface, it's very good.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-20-2002 at 03:42 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 03:47 PM | #234 |
The Insufferable
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[QUOTE"if god has seen the future, do we have the free will to change it?"
that is as simple as i can make it.[/QUOTE] The answer, of course, is no. Because if you have been seen to make a certain choice (as an excercise of free will) then that choice is made, and there is no way you can go back and make it again. It's sort of like time travel-if you go back and try to change history, it will probobly turn out that history was the way it was in the first place because you tried to interfere. Butthat's enough on that subject. I understand your position a well, mothra But, if i may say, I dont trust in a myself because I've never managed to get it right, so i learned to trust in God and I am a lot better off. Incidentally, what does it mean to be a 'practicing' christian? Is it really something that you need to practice for, or even can? ]: )
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11-20-2002, 04:05 PM | #235 | ||
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One final example
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You remember what you did yesterday? Well let me use this as another explanation for the apparent paradox. You're saying, God knows what I'll do tomorrow, so what can I do to change what I'll do tomorrow? It's all mapped out. What you did yesterday is mapped out to you now, so you know what you did. Certainly you had the ability to do something different, but your seeing now what you did do then doesn't mean that now you're making yourself in the past do the actions you did then (I hope you understand that sentence ). You aren't in control of what you did yesterday, but you know that it happened. And at the time it was happening, you had the ability to change it. You could have done exactly what you liked with that day. You simply now see what you did do. Well now let's go to the present day, which is today. God is in the tomorrow, he can see what you did today. What you're doing now is today, but God can see it as yesterday. You can't change what you did before, but you could have changed it while you were doing it. You are in charge of your own actions now, but God can simply look back, as it were, and know what you did (or are going to do). If you can see what you did yesterday, you can go to someone and make a prophesy about it easily. "Guess what," you can say to someone else, "I spent 3 hours on the computer yesterday." God can say, "Guess what, you are going to grow up to be a strong young man who will go to Africa as a missionary." This isn't any more contradictory to your free will then it is to your looking back at yesterday and saying what you did then. In God's eyes, it has already happened. From your limited perspective, it hasn't happened yet, but God isn't inside the same time frame as you are. If he was, then your argument would be very reasonable. God is outside of time. To us, it is a question of what will we do? To him, it is a question of what we did. His giving a prophesy doesn't force us into that course of action; it was our free will that led us to do that action. You simply have to stop looking at God from inside your own time frame, and understand that he is outside of time and created time, and thus to him everything has already happened is happening. Our now isn't his now. Look at the Bible, how he expresses the eternity of his being. I AM, he says. This is what Jesus once said: "Before Abraham was, I am." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-20-2002 at 04:22 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 04:09 PM | #236 |
Elf Lord
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Personal belief, Biblical Truth, and Silmarillion Truth
You must see, if you can understand the argument, that there is a strong answer for your question. Only if you continue to look at it from your current perspective, placing God in your now, does your question make much sense. Since you don't believe in God and you don't believe Jesus is the way to heaven, you can ignore the Bible and thus make your question make sense. Therefore, by discarding the Bible you can make your question make sense. But then it isn't a question to Christian beliefs, it is a question to your own beliefs. Therefore the Biblical explanation is more likely a better alternative then a newly created belief with an unanswerable question in it .
You can also wait until you die till you find out the truth, just like you suggested you might do, but I wouldn't advise it . It is possible to get to know God here on Earth, to witness his miracles, to hear his voice and to see his hand at work. You don't have to accept the Bible's passages as truth, but we're going by the Silmarillion and Tolkien's works, assuming that they're true for his world, and we're discussing his world. You don't have to accept this Christian explanation for our own present times, and I respect your opinions. You can continue to put God in our now, if you want to. But in the Silmarillion, I think you do have to accept it. That is simply because it makes sense, while the other explanation, that Ilúvatar made evil on purpose, doesn't make sense at all because of the observed evidence, unless you assume Ilúvatar to be, in reality, a despicable character. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-20-2002 at 04:21 PM. |
11-20-2002, 04:16 PM | #237 | |
Elf Lord
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A practicing Christian and a born again Christian
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The difference is in the heart. A born again Christian who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit has entered into a powerful new world, the spiritual dimension. Then things change for them. They pray, and their prayers are answered. Laying on hands can bring healing to people. Faith is rewarded by miracles. They can hear God's voice, and they have evidence of God's love. Then they can really, truly love God before family, before friends, and can be willing to give up everything they own, including their very lives for him. God doesn't demand a blind faith, he simply requests that people seek him. They don't have to believe he exists to seek him, to pray that he will reveal himself. Once he does, then life takes an utterly exciting turn that can take one's breath away. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-20-2002 at 04:20 PM. |
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11-20-2002, 04:18 PM | #238 |
Elf Lord
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Jeepers, I might be going overboard on my posting. I hope you people read it all, but I suppose if you don't want to, you don't have to .
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11-20-2002, 04:22 PM | #239 | |||
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Re: Ilúvatar's nature
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-20-2002, 05:05 PM | #240 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Because God/Ilúvatar knows that Arda/Earth Remade will be better for there having been sin. Without sin, we could never have come to know god's justice, and righteousness would have been natural, not appreciated. He permits it to bring his creatures to an even greater holiness. The final outcome will be pure goodness, and his design for getting there also is good. Ilúvatar can hate evil, destroy and punish evil, but evil was permitted because of free will, and the final outcome will be good. Quote:
None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil and I think he does hate it. However, as in the Bible, sometimes only through pain can you come to know him better. So to conclude, Cirdan, I think that this post shows I'm in agreement with you on a lot of the points you brought forth. For once . |
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