Why you believe what you believe I - Page 12

PippinTook · 10-24-2004, 04:35 PM

Ooh, this is interesting. I am fascinated by Catholicism in general (I'm protestant, pentecostal to be exact)

So, original sin is washed away by baptism in water? So you have to be baptised to enter Heaven. I was taught that the blood of Jesus, and only the blood of Jesus got you into Heaven, and it seems to me that if you were simply baptised (which I accept as a outward confession of an inward faith, and have been baptised myself) that that would not keep you from getting into Heaven. Trying to get some clarification here.

What I am asking in a round about way is:
If someone who accepted Jesus as their savior and believed everything about him and served him their whole lives faithfully, but was not Catholic and was not baptized, would they not get into Heaven? Even though they were 'washed' by the blood of the Lamb? Also, can you support this with scripture?

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 10-24-2004, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PippinTook

What I am asking in a round about way is:
If someone who accepted Jesus as their savior and believed everything about him and served him their whole lives faithfully, but was not Catholic and was not baptized, would they not get into Heaven? Even though they were 'washed' by the blood of the Lamb? Also, can you support this with scripture?

I think that they would get into heaven if the truly loved Him and served Him faithfully and repented for all the sins they had done. I'm afraid I can't support this with scripture, unless I read the whole Bible and knew the meaning of everything in it.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-24-2004, 04:46 PM

Why do oyu believe this? Were you bought up in a Christian family or did you discover Christ throught friends or Youth Groups?

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 10-24-2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Why do oyu believe this? Were you bought up in a Christian family or did you discover Christ throught friends or Youth Groups?

I was brought up in a Christian family.

Lief Erikson · 10-24-2004, 04:52 PM

I take it, Lizra, that you don't see any need for children to honor their parents?

Clearly you're not a mother . . .

**Nurvingiel** · 10-24-2004, 05:19 PM

Hey Pippin, my beliefs are outlined in depth on pages 6 through 11. Happy reading!

(The core of my beliefs are largely explained on p. 8. PM me anytime buddy.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

Nurvingiel: The Bible forms the core of my belief, which is the Catholic religion. Most everything about the Christian religion can be found there. For instance, the rules that we should live by:
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.
These are the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God, but there is another said by Jesus:
Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. (Or something close to that.)

You did hint at this already, but why do you believe this? Is it because you were raised as a Christian?

How do you interpret the second commandment? Is it okay to make statues of Jesus etc. ?

About the fourth commandment, do you think it's okay to work on Sundays? Do you feel it disrupts the holiness of the day, or that it does not?

Quote:

I believe in the Creation of the world. The Lord is the Creator of everything. I don't think that the world was made in 6 days: most likely over a long stretch of time, but to God it would seem 6 days. God gave us free will, and Satan tempted Adam and Eve and that is where we get orginal sin; yet orginal sin is washed away by Baptism, one of the the Seven Blessed Sacraments.

I really like your views on Creation. I agree.

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 10-24-2004, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You did hint at this already, but why do you believe this? Is it because you were raised as a Christian?

See post #224.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How do you interpret the second commandment? Is it okay to make statues of Jesus etc. ?

Of course! As long as it isn't pagan or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About the fourth commandment, do you think it's okay to work on Sundays? Do you feel it disrupts the holiness of the day, or that it does not?

I think it is okay to work on Sundays. Just as long as you go to Mass.(Which you can also do on Saturday night where I am.)

**Nurvingiel** · 10-24-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

See post #224.

*finds and reads* Oh, right. Well that answers that.

Same with me actually.

Thanks for answering my questions Merry. I don't have anymore, so tell us more about your beliefs. Whatever you feel like saying.

Lief Erikson · 10-24-2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How do you interpret the second commandment? Is it okay to make statues of Jesus etc. ?

About the fourth commandment, do you think it's okay to work on Sundays? Do you feel it disrupts the holiness of the day, or that it does not?

The second commandment had the purpose of destroying idol worship. Statues of Jesus are fine in my opinion, so long as they don't violate this teaching and become treated like idols.

As for working on Sundays . . .

Look at Jesus' reactions to the Sabbath. They give a pretty good answer to that question

. Oh, sorry, I forgot that you haven't read the Bible. Jesus was amazing on the Sabbath. The Pharisees hated him for his behavior on those days (though for many, many other reasons too). He healed the sick on those days and did all kinds of good things. The Sabbath is about taking aside time and making it holy to God, as I understand it. Jesus' actions were holy to God. Some kinds of work on the Sabbath are holy to God. The scripture is meant to be interpreted with the Holy Spirit more then as a legalistic code, for which there is one answer that covers all situations. When it's taken as legal rules which may not ever fluctuate, no matter what the circumstances or situation, we can get into serious problems. Moral teachings don't fluctuate nearly so much. To me that's because they're like the laws of nature, only they're of the spirit.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-24-2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The second commandment had the purpose of destroying idol worship. Statues of Jesus are fine in my opinion, so long as they don't violate this teaching and become treated like idols.

I see. I think we're all in agreement on that one. Is that right Merry?

Quote:

As for working on Sundays . . .

Look at Jesus' reactions to the Sabbath. They give a pretty good answer to that question

. Oh, sorry, I forgot that you haven't read the Bible.

Tbbbbbhthththt
I know about that part!

Quote:

Jesus was amazing on the Sabbath. The Pharisees hated him for his behavior on those days (though for many, many other reasons too). He healed the sick on those days and did all kinds of good things. The Sabbath is about taking aside time and making it holy to God, as I understand it. Jesus' actions were holy to God. Some kinds of work on the Sabbath are holy to God. The scripture is meant to be interpreted with the Holy Spirit more then as a legalistic code, for which there is one answer that covers all situations. When it's taken as legal rules which may not ever fluctuate, no matter what the circumstances or situation, we can get into serious problems. Moral teachings don't fluctuate nearly so much. To me that's because they're like the laws of nature, only they're of the spirit.

*nods* Right on!
This isn't really about what Merry believes (unless... it is...) but why then do you feel that people thought it was wrong in North American society (and possibly others) to have shops open etc. in Sundays? (Obviously they aren't doing holy work, but Jesus did his work and we do ours...)
This question is especially for Merry but also for everyone.

Lief Erikson · 10-24-2004, 06:45 PM

In colonial America there were a lot of Puritans here, people very strict and legalistic in interpretation of the scripture. Not every Christian gets everything right. However, I don't feel fully qualified to speak on this, not having thought on this issue enough.

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 10-24-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I see. I think we're all in agreement on that one. Is that right Merry?

Yup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

*nods* Right on!
This isn't really about what Merry believes (unless... it is...) but why then do you feel that people thought it was wrong in North American society (and possibly others) to have shops open etc. in Sundays? (Obviously they aren't doing holy work, but Jesus did his work and we do ours...)
This question is especially for Merry but also for everyone.

Well, there are some people who need to work on Sundays, i.e. police, firemen, et cetera. And then there are people who are working for money that they need. I don't think someone who doesn't need money despratly should work on Sunday, though.

PippinTook · 10-24-2004, 06:51 PM

In response to Nurv's comment about shops on Sundays,

I know that Chick-fil-a (which rocks out loud) is owned by a Christian man and is closed on Sundays. I think it is more so that their employees have the opportunity to go to church rather than it is sinful to work on Sundays. They don't want to be a reason why people(employees) can not go to church. That's just an example, I don't know about other organizations and whatnot.

Lief Erikson · 10-24-2004, 07:09 PM

Well that's certainly a good reason to be closed. It's not legalism; it's kindness.

PippinTook · 10-24-2004, 07:36 PM

Yeah, and not to mention they have killer wraps

So I don't mind supporting them. Do jews still bide by the sabbath laws that say no working on the sabbath? I mean modern day jews, either in the west or in Israel. Do we have anyone from Israel here?

Lizra · 10-24-2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I take it, Lizra, that you don't see any need for children to honor their parents?

Clearly you're not a mother . . .

I meant something like "Check please!" ...or..."I gotta go, my mommy's calling" get it!?

Linaewen · 10-24-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PippinTook

What I am asking in a round about way is:
If someone who accepted Jesus as their savior and believed everything about him and served him their whole lives faithfully, but was not Catholic and was not baptized, would they not get into Heaven? Even though they were 'washed' by the blood of the Lamb? Also, can you support this with scripture?

What if you were raised a Catholic, and had all the sacraments and lived a 'good' life, but were an atheist? And what if you lived a good (as in not evil) life full stop, but were of a different religion (thus not receiving Jesus' body/blood)? Purgatory?

Merry, have you ever questioned your Christian beliefs? Does any part of it not sit well with you?

PippinTook · 10-24-2004, 09:50 PM

I don't know if that first question was directed at me, though it was probably for Merry, that atheist person, who lived the good life their whole lives and did their best not to sin would still go to Hell. Jesus is the way into heaven, the only truth, and the only way to live.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-25-2004, 02:35 AM

Yep, that question was directed at Merry.

*must resist answering with own beliefs... have already had turn...*

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-25-2004, 03:45 AM

Merry, do you believe that all of the 10 commandments are important as each other or that some like #6 are more important than others?

10-24-2004, 04:35 PM	#221
PippinTook The Infamous Tea Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY! Posts: 1,162	Ooh, this is interesting. I am fascinated by Catholicism in general (I'm protestant, pentecostal to be exact) So, original sin is washed away by baptism in water? So you have to be baptised to enter Heaven. I was taught that the blood of Jesus, and only the blood of Jesus got you into Heaven, and it seems to me that if you were simply baptised (which I accept as a outward confession of an inward faith, and have been baptised myself) that that would not keep you from getting into Heaven. Trying to get some clarification here. What I am asking in a round about way is: If someone who accepted Jesus as their savior and believed everything about him and served him their whole lives faithfully, but was not Catholic and was not baptized, would they not get into Heaven? Even though they were 'washed' by the blood of the Lamb? Also, can you support this with scripture? __________________ http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/shanakdakhete/svbf.gif If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND

10-24-2004, 04:46 PM	#223
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Why do oyu believe this? Were you bought up in a Christian family or did you discover Christ throught friends or Youth Groups? __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

10-24-2004, 04:52 PM	#225
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	I take it, Lizra, that you don't see any need for children to honor their parents? Clearly you're not a mother . . . __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

10-24-2004, 06:45 PM	#231
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	In colonial America there were a lot of Puritans here, people very strict and legalistic in interpretation of the scripture. Not every Christian gets everything right. However, I don't feel fully qualified to speak on this, not having thought on this issue enough. __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

10-24-2004, 06:51 PM	#233
PippinTook The Infamous Tea Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY! Posts: 1,162	In response to Nurv's comment about shops on Sundays, I know that Chick-fil-a (which rocks out loud) is owned by a Christian man and is closed on Sundays. I think it is more so that their employees have the opportunity to go to church rather than it is sinful to work on Sundays. They don't want to be a reason why people(employees) can not go to church. That's just an example, I don't know about other organizations and whatnot. __________________ http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/shanakdakhete/svbf.gif If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND

10-24-2004, 07:09 PM	#234
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Well that's certainly a good reason to be closed. It's not legalism; it's kindness. __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

10-24-2004, 07:36 PM	#235
PippinTook The Infamous Tea Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY! Posts: 1,162	Yeah, and not to mention they have killer wraps So I don't mind supporting them. Do jews still bide by the sabbath laws that say no working on the sabbath? I mean modern day jews, either in the west or in Israel. Do we have anyone from Israel here? __________________ http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/shanakdakhete/svbf.gif If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND

10-24-2004, 09:50 PM	#238
PippinTook The Infamous Tea Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Riding my Attack Llama, CORY! Posts: 1,162	I don't know if that first question was directed at me, though it was probably for Merry, that atheist person, who lived the good life their whole lives and did their best not to sin would still go to Hell. Jesus is the way into heaven, the only truth, and the only way to live. __________________ http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/shanakdakhete/svbf.gif If I can stop one heart from aching, I shall not live in vain. -Emily Dickinson But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of the Master's hand. Though she be but little, she is fierce! -MSND

10-25-2004, 03:45 AM	#240
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Merry, do you believe that all of the 10 commandments are important as each other or that some like #6 are more important than others? __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230