03-15-2005, 04:42 PM | #221 | ||
Quasi Evil
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adult homosexuals are NOT allowed to marry consenting adults that THEY love. They are instead only given the option of marrying a consenting adult that they would never want to marry and would be miserable with if they did. Since there is no rational or logical reason to restrict homosexuals from marriage then by definition it is both unfair and irrational.
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03-15-2005, 04:58 PM | #222 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I know you know my reasoning, but here it is for newbies: In your #1, you have clearly added restrictions to who is allowed to marry ("adult" and "consenting") based on YOUR worldview and what YOU think is right. I do the same, and I say you get one vote and I get one vote, since neither one of us can prove that our worldview is right. In your #2 - this is an example of a group of people that you think, based upon YOUR worldview, SHOULD be allowed to marry, because you see no harm in it. That's fine - you have a right to your worldview and your opinion on what is harmful and what isn't, and I say, give the man one vote! I would certainly hope that if you see harm in letting a certain group marry, then you would vote against it, and if you see NO harm in letting a certain group marry, then you would vote FOR it. In my opinion, based on my worldview, it IS harmful to allow homosexuals to marry, and I say I should be allowed my vote, too. Neither one of us can prove our worldview; our definition of "harmful" is based on our worldview. Both of us are being fair and non-discriminatory, because we each have RATIONAL reasons behind our opinions, based upon our worldviews. Neither one can prove their worldview, so I think allowing one person one vote is the best possible solution. Give the lady a vote! We are now equal Your #3 - Based on your unproven worldview, you are ENTIRELY rational to support marriage for consenting adults, either male/female, male/male or female/female. Based on MY unproven worldview, I am ENTIRELY rational to say that marriage should be restricted to consenting adults, one of whom is male and one of whom is female. We can BOTH be rational - the only difference is our underlying worldviews, which are where we draw our opinions on what is harmful. I think your WORLDVIEW is wrong; I don't think your REASONING is wrong (except that I see no logical grounds for you limiting it to "consenting" or "adult" - that's another story, tho). Now assuming my worldview is correct, what, exactly, is irrational or illogical about my REASONING? Do you see what I mean? My reasoning is flawless, given my worldview. And your reasoning is flawless, given YOUR worldview. So why should you DISCRIMINATE against my worldview, since you can't prove yours is right?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 03-15-2005 at 04:59 PM. |
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03-15-2005, 05:02 PM | #223 |
Elf Lord
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Nurv,
Glad you liked the MARRIAGE THREAD bump ... which quickly got lost! And I appreciate your rational counter-arguments to my rational arguments. Did you appreciate the counter - counter-arguments, too? Seriously, maybe the judge's stuff should have gone there?
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03-15-2005, 05:04 PM | #224 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't know - it seems that the homosexual marriage issue takes over this thread, but I don't want to take over katya's thread with the homosexual marriage issue, either. SHould we start a thread specifically on the definition of marriage, or the issue of homosexual marriage?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 05:09 PM | #225 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 03-15-2005 at 05:11 PM. |
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03-15-2005, 05:12 PM | #226 | ||
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Ok. Quote:
Its generally established that the brains of children are fundamentally different (developmentally) then the brains of adult humans. Because of these differences we have clear evidence that children are apt to make a higher percentage of choices that could ultimately prove dangerous to themselves and are more likely to place themselves into a situation where there is a higher percentage of likelihood that they could be abused, taken advantage of, or physically hurt. It is generally established that the brains of adults are fully developed whether they be heterosexual or homosexual. Therefore we can make no logical restriction on the behavior of homosexuals based on the same rational we use to restrict the behavior of children. FAMILY INBREEDING vs. SEXUAL PERSUASION The logic behind this issue is that family members that marry (and breed) stand a much higher chance of producing genetic mutant offspring to the disadvantage of said offspring which or often born with strange painful deformities or rare genetic diseases that would be much less likely to be an issue when carriers of these recessive genes breed with non relatives. Now this is based on CURRENT SCIENTIFIC data. Not on religious or “moral” notions. Although it may parallel religious or “moral” notions. When and if we find out differently (that the harm done by a mom breeding with her son) is actually low enough to be less of concern then we can rethink these particular laws. For example, currently theres more and more evidence that cousins can breed with somewhat minimal worry of genetic issues. Yes it would be higher then two random people but its still seems to be fairly low in incidence so if that’s the case then I see no problem with cousins marrying. IF the data bears out. Homosexuals cannot breed with one another. Homosexuals can have children (even naturally) and these offspring are subject to the same danger of genetic complications as children of heterosexual couples are. No higher. No lower. So therefore there is no reason to discriminate against homosexuals based on possible genetic (or frankly any health) issues at all. And attempting to do so would not stand up in a court of law. MULTIPLE WIVES/HUSBANDS: Frankly, I don’t see a problem with more then two people of legal age and consenting mind marrying each other in a group marriage. If they are all willing and ok with it then whats the problem? Again, who are we to say NO YOU CANT DO THAT! BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE IT!
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03-15-2005, 05:13 PM | #227 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(btw, this is from katya's opening post on the marriage thread : "I'll admit that the real topic of our discussion was same-sex marriage, but I'd rather not get into that. I just want to hear your opinions on marriage in general.") so the topic of homosexual marriage shouldn't be moved over there. )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 05:25 PM | #228 | ||
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To me “worldview” is simply code for religion. So what you are saying is you base your approach to homosexuality on your religious beliefs. If you don’t (and Im sure you will deny this) then where is all the evidence saying that gays being married is so dreadfully harmful? Quote:
my “worldview” isn’t unproven. Youll note that everything I assert has factual evidence to back it up. Youll note that your opinion that gays marrying causes them grave harm DOESN’T have factual evidence to back it up. So please don’t attempt to pull me down to your level on this. When I start saying muslims shouldn’t be allowed to drive because I feel its harmful or Chinese people shouldn’t be allowed to own property because I feel its harmful to them then we would be on equal terms.
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03-15-2005, 06:12 PM | #229 | |
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so it has been Hijacked before, as it were
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03-15-2005, 06:30 PM | #230 | |
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My worldview is Christianity. And I can't prove I'm right. And I base my views on homosexuality on my worldview.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 03-15-2005 at 06:33 PM. |
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03-15-2005, 07:33 PM | #231 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I've started a thread called "Homosexual Marriage", because people have complained that this thread is being taken over by discussions about homosexual marriage, to the exclusion of other gay/les/bi issues
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 10:38 PM | #232 | |
Quasi Evil
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2. Being agnostic is irrelevent to what I have been saying about gay marriage. Many people of varying religions and non religions feel the exact same way. And came to the exact same conclusions by simply (and ONLY) looking at the facts involved. And at history. 3. I CAN prove Im right that gays marrying does not cause catostrophic harm of some kind. THATS the point. Where as I see no real evidence that gay marriage causes such great harm. Conclusion: My stance on this issue is a more logical one.
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03-16-2005, 10:15 AM | #233 | ||
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World view is a useful term, but I think it's actually two words. I think it was in a Wikipedia article.
However, I don't think you should just use the term to say that you can't prove you're right. I think IRex made some good points earlier that aren't that easy to dismiss. I'm not saying you're looking for an easy way out RĂ*an (would you ever do this in a debate?!) but in this case I don't think the phrase "your world view is unproveable as is mine" (even though that is true) completely applies. If we really want to get phisolophical, which I don't think we do in this thread, we would have to say that you can't prove anything! It would be quite OT to debate whether or not our keyboards are real. We have to have some sort of acceptance of reality. IRex had a very good post there about why society shouldn't allow underage marriage or incest, but should allow gay marriage (and polygamy, but we should move this one to the marriage thread).
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03-20-2005, 04:44 PM | #234 | ||
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The fact that homosexual men can't give blood in "unprejudiced" countries like Finland and Sweden too - what one should know is that when HIV and Aids came, the gay movement itself actually thought prohibiting gays from donating blood was a good idea. At least that's what I've heard. My point is that these restrictions aren't only the idea of some biased people. The gay movements are also responsible. It's understandable if they now want to make blood donations open to everyone but it would be a bit hypocritic if they didn't take some of the responsability for these restrictions upon themselves. Oh, this doesn't mean I don't support the idea that all gays should be able to give blood Quote:
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03-21-2005, 07:05 PM | #235 |
The Intermittent One
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I am introducing my sister in here - she is bisexual (i know she won't mind )
She's having fun at Uni, so I can speak for her Did you know that Bonobo's are almost exclusively bisexual? so anyone that says homo/bi-sexuality is proved false here by my use of an example from nature herself! |
03-21-2005, 08:17 PM | #236 | |
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03-21-2005, 08:19 PM | #237 |
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our closest relatives, like and yet unlike!
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03-22-2005, 08:03 AM | #238 | ||
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Yeah, we are the only animal that organizes killing of our own species.
Anyway I have a theory about how religion had hijacked this thread. I think it's much easier to post in here when responding to a debate. ER Season 11 spoilers below... Last night's episode of ER (Cityakuten) here in Sweden was called "Just as I am". It was mostly about Dr. Weaver's search for her birth mother. She finds her, and they start getting to know each other. Her mother is an evalengelical Christian and can't accept that Kerry is gay. Her reaction to Kerry telling her this was to pray with her. Pray to stop being gay! Kerry says she doesn't want love without acceptance and leaves. Poor Kerry. She's one of my favourite characters. (Actually, the only character I don't like is Morris.) I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. I think Kerry handled it well though. Maybe I'd give my birth mother more time. She may grow to accept Kerry over time. In the meantime I think it would be too awkward to want to spend time. I think it would feel terrible to know that the person you were with was thinking you needed to be cured of being gay. Here's a picture of Kerry (left) and her mom:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 03-22-2005 at 08:05 AM. |
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03-22-2005, 11:50 AM | #239 | |
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03-22-2005, 02:31 PM | #240 | ||
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Really? Okay this is OT but I have to ask, what other animal does that? A male lion, when taking over a pride, will kill the offspring of the previous male. But you won't get a prides of lions organizing themselves into lion armies. That's what I meant before.
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