Theism - Page 12

Wayfarer · 03-28-2002, 07:18 PM

God created light, not light sources.

So, if when he said 'let there be light', he filled the entire universe.

BeardofPants · 03-28-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nariel Starshine
Okay, I just want everyone to know that I post this while I am at school. My books are at home an di can't really access Entmoot at home because my computer is too slow. So when I post I don't have my books with me. I just dig up whatever I can remember from reading them.

Also, if I recall correctly, BeardofPants, you keep talking about how the facts prove an older earth and, while I have been trying to prove otherwise, you simply refute what I have said. Could you please give me the facts (not a link, give me what you are thinking of when you say facts). This will help me considerably.

Also, my comment concerning why evolutionists use carbon dating was meant as a joke.

I also do not refute the idea of Microevolution.

Anyway, that said, to Anduril, I wish to say this:

My God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is good and kind. He is forgiving, but just. His wrath is not to be toyed with, but His mercy is unsurpassable. His grace surpasses all understanding, and His love endures all. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He is eternal, the Creator of all things, and the King of all. He will never leave me, but will chastise me when needed. He is a kind Father, a forgiving King, and a friend and guide to me. He gives life and takes it away. He is forever.

How about I just quote what Nibs posted?

Quote:

Archaeological Breakthrough!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...dinovomit.html?

"British scientists have discovered the world's oldest fossilized vomit, believed to have come from a large marine reptile 160 million years ago.

"The vomit fossil shows the remains of dozens of squid-like shellfish that were eaten in great numbers by ichthyosaurs, large marine reptiles (related to land-dwelling dinosaurs) common in the warm seas of the Jurassic era.

"We believe that this is the first time the existence of fossil vomit on a grand scale has been proven beyond reasonable doubt," said geologist Professor Doyle."

Pictures, too! I find it amazing that some one cares so much about the vomit of ancient, extinct creatures. Will anyone care to notice mine in eons to come?

afro-elf · 03-28-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

God created light, not light sources.

a) are not the sun and the stars lights sources?
or didn't god create those?

b) if he created light why create light sources

c) or how is the light without light sources

Wayfarer · 03-28-2002, 08:46 PM

Sorry, Afro Elf. I was trying to get off the computer when I posted that:

a)God created light and not sources initially. He created the celestial bodies later.

b)I don't know. But I'm glad he did. I like stars.

c)The last time I checked, we weren't sure exactly what light is. So I'm not quite sure. But I imagine He could just flood the universe with photons, or light waves,or whatever.

emplynx · 03-28-2002, 08:58 PM

I have been thinking about 60 million light year away thing. Evolutionists argue that the earth must be as old as the light from the stars is. But, I was putting myself in God's perspective.
OK, you have this cool idea for celestial objects that are really fascinating, but you can't put them really close to your civilazation or it will not allow life. But you also don't plan on leaving that civilazation around 60 million years to finally get a glimps of these awesome creations that show your power, SO you create the light in route so that your creation can see them right off.

Just my reasoining on why God created light first.

Wayfarer · 03-28-2002, 09:39 PM

That's what I was trying to say... thanks emplynx.

I recall hearing about some creationsist who came up with his own mathamatic origin of the universe. I believe his book was called 'starlight and time...

[interrupt for google search]

... Ok. Starlight and Time by Hubert Humphreys. (what a name). Here's an article by him, regarding it.

I have not read this book... I have been meaning to, and thus cannot critique it. But it seems, at first blush, to offer a more than adaquate alternative to the traditional Big Bang cosmology. I shall warily suggest that creationists read it.

For evolutionists, I would like to quote this author giving a statement which quite contradicts your presuppositions.

Quote:

Even if you like my theory, please try to keep open to the possibility that a better one may come along.

So much for rigid dogma. ]: )

Andúril · 03-30-2002, 08:54 AM

Nariel Starshine, would it be possible for you to back those characteristics up with biblical quotes?

markedel · 03-30-2002, 09:38 AM

There is a day to deal with that contradiction afro-elf, but it isn't pretty.

1. The Sun and Moon were, some way or another physically present before Genisis, where they came from is up to you-let's say God physically made them, but is not connected with them. Therefore is a ethical montheist's worldview, they aren't "there"

2. God says "let there be light" seen as the symbol of God's connection to the physical, as light is a substance that bridges the gap between infinite and physical, it isn't "light" as in a light bulb.

3. On the fourth "day" God links the sun and moon and stars to his infiniteness-and voila on the fourth day...

To see how this is found textually read the first first thus

"And the WAS: In turmoil, and darkness was over the abyss"

Andúril · 03-30-2002, 09:40 AM

afro-elf,

Your point (c) is quite interesting. Take for instance an eclipse - what happens? The sun is blocked from our vision, the light does not reach the point where the eclipse can be seen, and it becomes dark.

Similarily on a night when there is heavy cloud cover and the moon is hidden, it is darker than usual. This is because even though the light emitting from the sun reflects against the moon - we just can't see the moon.

It seems that the visibility of our closest celestial objects makes an impact on the amount of light that we perceive. Why would it be reasonable to believe that we would perceive ambient light if these celestial objects were entirely invisible to us? I don't think it is reasonable at all. Just imagine viewing a total eclipse while ambient light remains the same - this is the implication of light not needing sources.

How would someone create light and then create the light sources later? We all know that light travels at a certain speed; how could it have traveled from nowhere? This is where God gets a chance to exhibit his omnipotence.

I sometimes wonder why God would violate a "law of nature", especially when it did not involve humans...

markedel · 03-30-2002, 09:42 AM

Another interpertation is that the Hebrew word "Bara" means organize. Using the above interpertation of the pre-existing physcal world, God organized the heavens and put things in their proper places.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 03-30-2002, 09:45 AM

I feel that the theist viewpoint is the most logical theory of the two. My reason being that every thing in this world shortens or lengthens to an infinite value. I mean everything is made up of molecule's molecule's,atoms;atoms,subparticles;subparticles,q uarks, etc... What is the base?

Or even more confusing time...

When was the first day. The Atheistic view point argues an infinite amount of days ago but you must see that this is impossible. Infinite can be defined as : a number in which any subset of that number is equal to the first. So that if I were to go back half of infinite I would still have an infinite amount of days to go. Time could never have reached present date. So we must agree that there has to be a finite number of days between now and the first existence of our dimensionsTime is a dimension so I must conclude that what ever started or instigated time lives outside of our dimensions. . To argue that the dimensions made them selves is ludicrous. I must believe there is a god

Andúril · 03-30-2002, 09:46 AM

Is bara used in Genesis, and if so, exactly where?

markedel · 03-30-2002, 01:46 PM

"Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve et haaretz"

A common translation: In the begininng God created the heavens and the earth.

Brimvalir · 03-31-2002, 08:56 AM

but what if The Bible is just the worlds first big fantasy novel ??

markedel · 03-31-2002, 09:00 AM

Then it's a fantasy novel with more meaning and depth then LOTR, something which takes great skill.

Andúril · 03-31-2002, 02:22 PM

Markedel,

Do you understand Genesis 1:1 as "In the beginning God organized the heavens and earth"?

If so, this implies that he did not create anything, merely organized. Or is this one of those times where bara is interpreted otherwise?

markedel · 03-31-2002, 04:45 PM

Actually the real point is that Bereshit means for a purpose it is composed of two hebrew words
"be" (always attached to other words) meaning for
"reshit" meaning purpose

The point being that Genisis is not telling us that the world was physically created by God. God certainly doesn't care what you think, and the bible is there for people to learn from. What matters is that God connected himself/organized the physical world for a purpose that he decided. This purpose is then outlined in the rest of the bible.

Andúril · 04-01-2002, 02:21 PM

Quote:

God certainly doesn't care what you think...

And if I think this god doesn't exist? Will he care then?

Cirdan · 04-01-2002, 02:33 PM

I guess God must exist because this thread is still open, but the anti-theist thread is closed. Hmmm...

*turns to walk away*

Twilight · 04-01-2002, 05:40 PM

I think you are right Cirdan. This thread got opened up again first as well. I think that in the quote "God certainly doesn't care what you think..." isn't quite accurate. He cares very deeply about us and what we think. That doesn't mean that he is going to do something differantly because of what we think though.

03-28-2002, 07:18 PM	#221
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	God created light, not light sources. So, if when he said 'let there be light', he filled the entire universe. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-28-2002, 08:46 PM	#224
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Sorry, Afro Elf. I was trying to get off the computer when I posted that: a)God created light and not sources initially. He created the celestial bodies later. b)I don't know. But I'm glad he did. I like stars. c)The last time I checked, we weren't sure exactly what light is. So I'm not quite sure. But I imagine He could just flood the universe with photons, or light waves,or whatever. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-30-2002, 09:38 AM	#228
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	There is a day to deal with that contradiction afro-elf, but it isn't pretty. 1. The Sun and Moon were, some way or another physically present before Genisis, where they came from is up to you-let's say God physically made them, but is not connected with them. Therefore is a ethical montheist's worldview, they aren't "there" 2. God says "let there be light" seen as the symbol of God's connection to the physical, as light is a substance that bridges the gap between infinite and physical, it isn't "light" as in a light bulb. 3. On the fourth "day" God links the sun and moon and stars to his infiniteness-and voila on the fourth day... To see how this is found textually read the first first thus "And the WAS: In turmoil, and darkness was over the abyss" __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-30-2002, 09:42 AM	#230
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Another interpertation is that the Hebrew word "Bara" means organize. Using the above interpertation of the pre-existing physcal world, God organized the heavens and put things in their proper places. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-30-2002, 09:45 AM	#231
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	I feel that the theist viewpoint is the most logical theory of the two. My reason being that every thing in this world shortens or lengthens to an infinite value. I mean everything is made up of molecule's molecule's,atoms;atoms,subparticles;subparticles,q uarks, etc... What is the base? Or even more confusing time... When was the first day. The Atheistic view point argues an infinite amount of days ago but you must see that this is impossible. Infinite can be defined as : a number in which any subset of that number is equal to the first. So that if I were to go back half of infinite I would still have an infinite amount of days to go. Time could never have reached present date. So we must agree that there has to be a finite number of days between now and the first existence of our dimensionsTime is a dimension so I must conclude that what ever started or instigated time lives outside of our dimensions. . To argue that the dimensions made them selves is ludicrous. I must believe there is a god __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

03-28-2002, 08:58 PM	#225
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I have been thinking about 60 million light year away thing. Evolutionists argue that the earth must be as old as the light from the stars is. But, I was putting myself in God's perspective. OK, you have this cool idea for celestial objects that are really fascinating, but you can't put them really close to your civilazation or it will not allow life. But you also don't plan on leaving that civilazation around 60 million years to finally get a glimps of these awesome creations that show your power, SO you create the light in route so that your creation can see them right off. Just my reasoining on why God created light first.

03-30-2002, 08:54 AM	#227
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Nariel Starshine, would it be possible for you to back those characteristics up with biblical quotes?

03-30-2002, 09:40 AM	#229
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	afro-elf, Your point (c) is quite interesting. Take for instance an eclipse - what happens? The sun is blocked from our vision, the light does not reach the point where the eclipse can be seen, and it becomes dark. Similarily on a night when there is heavy cloud cover and the moon is hidden, it is darker than usual. This is because even though the light emitting from the sun reflects against the moon - we just can't see the moon. It seems that the visibility of our closest celestial objects makes an impact on the amount of light that we perceive. Why would it be reasonable to believe that we would perceive ambient light if these celestial objects were entirely invisible to us? I don't think it is reasonable at all. Just imagine viewing a total eclipse while ambient light remains the same - this is the implication of light not needing sources. How would someone create light and then create the light sources later? We all know that light travels at a certain speed; how could it have traveled from nowhere? This is where God gets a chance to exhibit his omnipotence. I sometimes wonder why God would violate a "law of nature", especially when it did not involve humans...

03-30-2002, 09:46 AM	#232
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Is bara used in Genesis, and if so, exactly where?

03-30-2002, 01:46 PM	#233
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	"Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve et haaretz" A common translation: In the begininng God created the heavens and the earth. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-31-2002, 08:56 AM	#234
Brimvalir Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: California Posts: 103	Bible but what if The Bible is just the worlds first big fantasy novel ?? __________________ Swords are of no more use here ... All that is gold does not glitter nor are all those who wander lost......

03-31-2002, 09:00 AM	#235
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Then it's a fantasy novel with more meaning and depth then LOTR, something which takes great skill. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-31-2002, 02:22 PM	#236
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Markedel, Do you understand Genesis 1:1 as "In the beginning God organized the heavens and earth"? If so, this implies that he did not create anything, merely organized. Or is this one of those times where bara is interpreted otherwise? Last edited by Andúril : 03-31-2002 at 02:24 PM.

03-31-2002, 04:45 PM	#237
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Actually the real point is that Bereshit means for a purpose it is composed of two hebrew words "be" (always attached to other words) meaning for "reshit" meaning purpose The point being that Genisis is not telling us that the world was physically created by God. God certainly doesn't care what you think, and the bible is there for people to learn from. What matters is that God connected himself/organized the physical world for a purpose that he decided. This purpose is then outlined in the rest of the bible. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

04-01-2002, 02:33 PM	#239
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	I guess God must exist because this thread is still open, but the anti-theist thread is closed. Hmmm... turns to walk away __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

04-01-2002, 05:40 PM	#240
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	I think you are right Cirdan. This thread got opened up again first as well. I think that in the quote "God certainly doesn't care what you think..." isn't quite accurate. He cares very deeply about us and what we think. That doesn't mean that he is going to do something differantly because of what we think though. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

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