Theology III

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Rinke. People who crave ritual come in all flavors of spirituality, including various branches of the Wiccan 'tradition". Also, people who don't. It's not an innate characteristic of the practice.

[Curufin]

Is your belief system based on more than the spiritual experiences?

I don't quite understand. My beliefs are, of course, also based on study.

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel God is all?

Ah, an explanation of my pantheism! I guess this comes a bit from my upbringing, to be honest. When I was a little girl, before we started going to the Presbyterian church, and after we stopped going, my mother and father would get me and my brother up early in the morning (before dawn) and we would ride our bikes to the park nearby and watch the sun rise over the trees as we fixed breakfast. It was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life, watching the world come alive like that. I guess it was in those times that I began to see God/the Creator as everything around me. God was not just something distant and remote, but something in everything around me. God was in the birds that sang as the sun rose, in the rustle of the wind in the trees, in the rabbits that scampered along in the fields. The beauty of the world around me could be explained to my heart and soul in no other way than that the world itself - and everything in it - was divine, and no different than the Creator who created it in the first place. This was backed up by the Quaker theological teachings that claim that there is 'That of God in everyone' - which is easily morphed into 'That of God in everything'.

Also, I'd be curious to hear what your moral values are and on what they are based, how you draw the line between morally good and bad things.

Thats a very broad and difficult question. Perhaps you could specify which moral values you're most interested in? I'd be glad to answer, but I'm not exactly sure how to approach this question.

I agree with you that sex shouldn't be seen as dirty. But then, you'd probably see rape or pedophelia as in some way dirty. Some sexual acts might be considered dirty, even while sex itself, practiced as it should be practiced, is not dirty. We probably just draw the line in different places as to what kinds of sexual behavior are harmful.

Of course I see rape and pedophelia as wrong. I should have added 'between consenting adults' to my answer. I feel that sex between consenting adults is a beautiful gift. And you notice that I do not specify the gender of those consenting adults.

I also see as very valid your criticisms of the focus some church members or leaders have on appearance and wealth, as opposed to the mission of the church to dedicating itself to being the love of God for the world.

Amen. I think this is a big problem - many churches concentrate so much on building their own wealth that they forget the plot.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I did talk to my friends (also becoming a youth pastor) grandfather whose a pastor and he said that most youth of today are more into the bible then being a denomination, to tell you the truth why does their need to be denominations its a relationship with God not a popularity contest.

Oh, Gawd almighty, where on EARTH do I begin? Hector? Lief? Somebody?

Curu: So, as I understand it, you could essentially be described as a low-church Wiccan?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Curu: So, as I understand it, you could essentially be described as a low-church Wiccan?

Gwaimir, yes, I think that's about right. With some tenents of Quakerism thrown in.

[Azrael]

yeah what is the other sides view?

[Azrael]

I'll bring the Hot dogs!!!!! BBG!!! rock on!!!
anyways yeah. I did talk to my friends (also becoming a youth pastor) grandfather whose a pastor and he said that most youth of today are more into the bible then being a denomination, to tell you the truth why does their need to be denominations its a relationship with God not a popularity contest. Curufin I get what you many about that second church and sadly you are right. This is what I was talking about when i said american churches are becoming very corrupted...their sites are set on more money for them and more people then on what God wants...... but I know that, that is not what God is all about he even slams people like that in the gospels over and over calling them "snakes, white tombs..." and so on

[Azrael]

Sex is good as God states it, but only when used in that way He intended. The reason Gods says no sex before marrige is because when two people come together in sex they become one (in God's eyes) and He wants that to only be with the one he choose for you and not some random person.

[Azrael]

It really is...... With all I 've seen I couldn't deny even for a second theres a God....but also I can't deny that He is a loving God....ooo hey topic idea (curufin said this first tho)

she said that God may not be a guy or may not be a woman..my opinion God is nether male nor female but a spiritual being with is so much different.....the reason I say HE is due to Jesus being man (If someone says Jesus could have been a woman you better back that up big time if you say it B/C that is a huge step)

[Curufin]

Well, God is neither male nor female (at least through Godhead; from a Christian viewpoint, God the Son is male through his assumption of a male human nature, but God qua God is not). God has certain masculine aspects, and certain feminine aspects. God is most generally considered under masculine aspects, but sometimes he is referred to as "Mother", as well. Though as a traditionally-minded Christian, I feel one ought to be careful about that; it must be understood under the ratio of the incorporeal being neither male nor female, not through trying to make God into an empowering Goddess, as some Christians do.

I don't believe that God is male or female, but equal parts of each. My personal experience has been more with God's female aspect, but maybe that's just because I'm female and relate better. Both parts are equally important.

[Azrael]

as in? are you asking if I believe Jesus was born with original sin as in Adam and eve?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Try this again on me, Gwai, and talk slowly. If you reject Universalism, but believe in Original Sin, then everyone is affected by Original Sin, thus, sinners. (except Jesus, kind of a special case) Thus, no choice, yes?

If you don't believe in Original Sin, and reject Universalism, then it would, theoretically, be possible for someone to choose not to sin?
Completely? Anyone on that list, yet?

Here I lay out two options.

The first is Original Sin - Universal Salvation = sinners + Jesus

The second is no Original Sin and no Universal salvation = people who can choose not to sin.

Originally Posted by Azrael

yeah Jesus is on that list!

Jesus wasn't affected by Original Sin (as I understand it) so could choose to commit sin or not, but He didn't start as a sinner.. My question is, "Does everyone have that choice, and if so, has anyone taken it, yet?"

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Here I lay out two options.

The first is Original Sin - Universal Salvation = sinners + Jesus

The second is no Original Sin and no Universal salvation = people who can choose not to sin.



Jesus wasn't affected by Original Sin (as I understand it) so could choose to commit sin or not, but He didn't start as a sinner.. My question is, "Does everyone have that choice, and if so, has anyone taken it, yet?"

thats a deep question...my answer from what i know of God's word so far. no, we all have sin in us to begin with and we all need Jesus's gift, but when leaf said we have a choice I think he meant when you become to develop super ego which happens around 7 or 8. at that point you understand right or wrong and you know if your action is a sin or not. Thats what I think when he said we have a choice. Correct me if im wrong or add if im missing....plz make it short i don't like reading your long responses leaf...their too far over my head lol and half way through i get lost lol

[Azrael]

hey im bored out of my mind anyone want to play a game? ether if you have a yahoo account a game on there like poker so alot can play oooor if you have halo for PC hehehhe i want to shoot you......or steal your flag lol

[Azrael]

opps wrong forum...going to teacup...thought i was posting there

[Azrael]

my bad o well im still keeping it leaf

[Azrael]

I can only give you my perspective and on that before i give it i have met people who have so many belief but none of them truly deny there is a God they just think that God does not like them or something along that lines. Well I was born without knowing my dad but i always felt someone besides my mother who watched and took care of me. I also was always a Christian and had that "child's faith" where at night I would talk to God like he was there with me knowing that He was and sometimes I could even fell like he was laughing with me. This is really hard to explain to non-believers but its one of those things where if you truly open your heart to listen to God you will here Him and even feel Him there with you, the only problem is people do not want to accept that someone loves them enough to be tortured and die so that we could be with Him. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time seeing that God is real and He loves us more then anything and just wants to be with us! People say that God wants us to give up our lives and worship Him, follow Him and have no choice in our lives, but that is not true! God just wants to be with us! When we sing to Him its like when you have a girl/boy friend and you sing to them because you love them. We give offering not because we have to, but because we want to! Its also like when you give flowers to your wife (probably not to the husband lol) its not because you have to but because you love her! Its the same with God He gives us flowers every spring and Hes the one who invented flowers for that matter...if I could I would always give every penny I made to God because thats how much I love Him. This is the best i can explain God to you and what He means to me. I hope this helped to show you that I don't follow a set of rules and beliefs I just follow my Dad like his little boy just wanting to make Him proud...and the cool part is everyday I make Him proud even if i fail and sin.

[Coffeehouse]

I can't really comment on your personal faith, but I'll comment on this one.

Originally Posted by Azrael

This is really hard to explain to non-believers but its one of those things where if you truly open your heart to listen to God you will here Him

I used to believe in the Christian God. Until I realized I have as much reason to believe in that God as I have in believing in Zeus, or Allah, or Buddha.

In my view, no God. And even if he were there, he would be completely void of influence due to our free will. I'll say it again, it's not the fact that people privately believe in a God, or any other higher being, spirit, you name it, but it is the forceful imposition of such beliefs onto other people who do not share the belief that troubles me. It is especially troubling in religions with a rigid hierarchy like Catholicism and Islam. Less so with Hinduism and Buddhism, which is one of the reasons I believe Buddhism to be the model religion, peaceful and private.

[Azrael]

ok so that picture is not real? knew it...plus how would someone have a camera waiting to take a picture of an angel that appeared just then...for the first time?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No. The apparition occurred regularly for over a year. That's why you have so many pictures, and even video footage (on youtube).

EDIT: Hooboy, three people replying at once! Hold on tight!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

ok so that picture is not real? knew it...plus how would someone have a camera waiting to take a picture of an angel that appeared just then...for the first time?

I think you're misunderstanding me. It is real. There are many of these pictures, because the apparition appeared for many months (I don't remember exactly how long). It appeared to tens of thousands of people, at least a million in all, and it occurred so often in that period of three years that the international press took cameras to the site and filmed and photographed it.

The efforts of the Egyptian police were an attempt to disprove it, but their attempt failed.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, if he believes in the Gospels, then one can only assume.

Mmm. I agree, but I didn't believe it either while I was Protestant, in spite of that . I viewed that as something just Jesus could do, something unique to Him. That's because of the small "t" tradition I was raised in .

*Sigh.* The loss of Maccabees does hurt Protestants.