10-02-2008, 03:51 PM | #221 |
Elf Lord
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GW,
Five Centuries because of the uncontested (by Rome claimants to special official status within the Church?) theology, liturgy and polity of these times (years one through 499 or so). The developments agreed upon by all during those times were: Sunday as the Lord's Day, the day of worship; Church year structure for cyclic worship (Advent-Christmas-Lent-Easter-Pentecost-Trinity); Lectionary reading structure established for worship and seasons; liturgical worship forms rather than free worship forms; Holy Communion on Sundays and holy days; daily prayer in the churches; and development of the three-fold ministry of deacon, priest, and bishop. Also there were the considerations of liturgy matters regarding the fixed forms prior to later accretions in the East and West, the apostolic evidences from the major patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople and Rome, and their regard for the Patristic period before the sundering of the Church along political lines (the politics of Old Rome versus New Rome and the problems engendered by both). The great liturgies of St. James, St. Basil, St Chrysostom, St. Mark, and St. Clement come from this time and have remarkable coherence between them in regard to liturgy and theology. It was regarded as the purest time in the Church before the implications of state-approval and state-establishment had time to work their vitiating force. There were many who spoke on behalf of the Scripture and a return to it other than Martin Luther, GW. He's the poster child, so to speak. And a look at the flares and speed of the Reformation in its many outposts will demonstrate the large discontent of the priest & laity with the problems of the west. In fact the Church of Rome was slow to respond to the issues at hand! There was Trent and .................................................. .................................................. .... Vatican II.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-02-2008, 09:54 PM | #222 | |||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What exactly marks the end of this era of orthodoxy? Or, as one might put it, when precisely did the gates of Hell prevail over the Church of Christ?
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I begin to suspect that it's Five Centuries so that it fits after the Four Councils. Quote:
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And, jusy FYI, very, very few popes sired illegitimate children, at least during their papacy. They seemed to have had this strange idea that cardinals are allowed to flout the vow of chastity, but popes are not. I think there were only two or so who actually had bastard children while they were Pope. Not terribly relevant, but an interesting historical fact.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-03-2008, 08:04 AM | #223 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
So, my discussion of the vices of the clergy were still on topic because they were also a factor in the creation of the reformation. I could have sworn it was more popes than that who had children, but maybe I'm getting the timing mixed up... still, even if they had them when they were not popes, I can't see that as being good Plus, I doubt very much whether those calling for a reformation would have cared whether or not it was "okay" for Cardinals to have illegitimate children or not
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
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10-03-2008, 03:24 PM | #224 |
Elf Lord
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Well, GW, one could do the Gates business when the western church arrogated to itself the addition of the filoque on its own authority and altered the received catholic faith, I suppose.
Interesting definition of protest-ant; possible, do you think, that protesting on behalf of Luther might have had something to do with those 95 Theses thingies?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-04-2008, 09:38 AM | #225 |
Elven Maiden
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Does anyone actually want to continue discussion of God's sex/gender here? I only brought it up myself because I was giving EAR a hard time, but I suppose it could be.... more or less interesting.
In my world religions class we've been studying Christianity now. God the Father is called the father, I think, partly because of his father-like qualities. I think he's been called motherly too, though. I don't think of it as "God is everything so by definition he's both male and female" but because he actually shows both of those sides in action. My professor tended to think He went more toward female (in being nurturing and loving) but I think there's a pretty good balance going on. There's something akin to that balance to be found in the sephiroth of the Kabbalah. |
10-04-2008, 09:49 AM | #226 |
Elf Lord
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I suppose it would just have to depend on what religious beliefs you have.... is there one god? Are there many gods? Should we worship Mother Nature? Is there no real god figure but some sort of mystic force to the universe?
Those foundational beliefs would be the first step in defining how you think of god's sex/gender, I suppose Oh yeah, I went all Jedi on you
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 09:53 AM | #227 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah, I don't think of God as the Christian God myself, but that's just the one I happened to be discussing. I tend toward a "force" myself. It seems like kind of an arbitrary discussion because I don't think most people picture God as having genitalia, and whether he/she shows masculine or feminine characteristics seems kind of irrelevant at times too but if you think about it the right way it seems kind of important at the same time too. In terms of morality and other various things.
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10-04-2008, 09:55 AM | #228 |
Elf Lord
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Yeah, that makes sense...
I'm more of a "force" person lol... but I suppose if we go for the Christian god as the one under debate of sexuality/gender... dunno, it's difficult. Maybe first we'd have to determine what traits are typically "feminine" and which are "masculine" Can't we just peek under the robe and figure it out?
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 10:00 AM | #229 |
Elven Maiden
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LOL. Ok but I volunteer you for that job.
I think masculine/feminine characteristics are more or less straightforward. Yin/yang type things. Feminine is passive, motherly, nurturing, merciful, while masculine is active and powerful and wields authority and justice. We don't have to talk about just the Christian God though. I just started there because there's a lot of Christians around and because that's what I happen to be studying right now. |
10-04-2008, 10:04 AM | #230 |
Elf Lord
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Oh yeah... cause that would be a really comfortable moment in heaven "Um... scuse me... god? Mind if I just... have a peek?" *pause* "Well, that's that then..."
So if we go by those characteristics, Old Testament god is more masculine and New Testament god is more feminine. Did god have a sex change? I think we also need to take into account the feminine traits of protectiveness for their own children.... that can lead to wielding of power and authority... Yeah, maybe we can open it up to other deities later lol...
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 10:12 AM | #231 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah, I thought the same thing about the old/new testament. Actually... there are some sects that believe it's a different God altogether, namely the Gnostics. They tend to think that the material world is "bad" and the spiritual world is "good", and the creator of the material world (old testament God) is a bad God, even saying that the serpent in the garden of eden was a good guy trying to help us out (because of they hold knowledge in such high esteem). Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. right or wrong though, it's a neat idea. There does seem to be quite a reversal. Old testament God was kind of a jerk.
I didn't think about the protectiveness. I think that's a really important aspect of mothers (mother bear syndrome...) too. I think even really authoritative mothers are mostly just acting in a masculine, fatherly way though. In the traditional sense. |
10-04-2008, 10:16 AM | #232 |
Elf Lord
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Hmmm... that's quite interesting about the Gnostics... I'll have to do some research into that because I don't know much about their beliefs.
Yeah, Old Testament God was kind of a jerk lol... Maybe I'm going too in depth about the masculine and feminine trait things but I've just taken way too many gender courses....
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 10:22 AM | #233 |
Elven Maiden
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Really? I haven't taken any courses like that (only talked about it a little in sociology courses). Did you take any courses where you talked about how gender roles varied from place to place that might affect the discussion?
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10-04-2008, 10:26 AM | #234 |
Elf Lord
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Yeah... I took one called "Gender, Culture, and Communication," and that's pretty much all we did lol...
Plus we touched on the issue in almost all of my comm courses..
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 11:46 AM | #235 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, mercy me.
Did one of you young people really just assert that persons of the female gender share certain identifiable personality characteristics, such as nurturance? I hope not. Because Sane and I will have to open another can of whup-ass around here, and I hate to interupt my nurturing activities to do that. The Empresses new avatar.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-04-2008, 11:50 AM | #236 |
Elf Lord
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No... we asserted nothing...
Made mention of the common acceptance of such a belief but acknowledged that these were not wholly truthful to all beings That's all Hehe... nice av
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 11:56 AM | #237 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah Sis, we were talking about the traditionally accepted masculine/feminine. Not saying all females/males are one way or the other. I think my brother and I have switched gender roles sometimes. He's a girly-man.
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10-04-2008, 11:58 AM | #238 |
Elf Lord
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And you're a manny-girl?
*is kind of afraid of Sis's implied brand of "nurturing"*
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
10-04-2008, 12:01 PM | #239 |
Elven Maiden
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I think it's "manly", lol. Though I always called Adel from FF8 "manly manly beast woman Adel".
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10-04-2008, 12:04 PM | #240 |
Elf Lord
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But "manny" sounds nicer!
Manly sounds... well... manly... Like God may or may not be. Which is what this thread is about. And what we are really focusing on. *finishes attempting to appease any wandering admins*
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
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