REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Aden]

A question: basically, the commonly agreed upon statement has been that the rule of judgment between right and wrong is whether or not it wrongs other people. Now, a question, which I have never heard an answer to that I remember: Why is it wrong to wrong others? Please note: I mean NO DISRESPECT to atheists, or anything of the kind. But, if we are all no more than animals, with no purpose other than the propagation of our own genes, then why is it wrong to hurt another person? I am not saying that it is not wrong from the secular view; I am merely saying that I don't know WHY it is, and would be initerested in finding out

It's really simple actually : I don't wrong others (at least I try) because I know how it feels to be wronged (common sense). I know that feeling and I don't want others to feel that way because of me. And I believe that animals never hurt each other the way humans do. At least in that matter they behave far more civilized.

[Falagar]

It's really simple actually : I don't wrong others (at least I try) because I know how it feels to be wronged (common sense). I know that feeling and I don't want others to feel that way because of me. And I believe that animals never hurt each other the way humans do. At least in that matter they behave far more civilized.

True. Animals aren't evil, they do what it takes to survive. Humans, on the other hand, have managed to get hold of intelligence which means that they can decide wether they want to do something or not based on how they feel (and not necessary what's best for them).

Pretty tired right now and may have made some mistakes, grammatical or otherwise, above...

[Rían]

Of course atheists (and agnostics) are moral people!

They can't help it.

That's the way God made them

[Aden]

Well I forgot to mention ( but I guess it's pretty obvious) that I'm an atheist. I was born and raised Orthodox but apparently that changed in the way. I was little when I first started having my doubts. It actually took me many years to settle on atheism and I believe it's very hard for an certain individual to realize that he's on his own. I do believe that universe as a whole ( everything that exists ) constitutes a supreme force so in a way I believe in the existence of a supreme force.

[Rían]

In a more serious tone (altho my last post was serious, too, but with some humor) - I agree with Gwai that I have never seen an explanation for this: "Why is it wrong to wrong others?" that does not either (1) go against logic, or (2) go against observation. Or both

GTG now, I guess I'll pull in some quotes later and show how they fit either (1) or (2), IMHO. Or Gwai could do it for me if he wants to - I think we think the same way on this one.

[Aden]

First of all I really don't feel in position to judge what is wrong and what is right. But at least intuitively I think I did answer to that question. And as I said I try not to wrong anyone because I know how it feels to be wronged and I don't others to feel that way. So it is "wrong" to wrong people because if you do you lack the feeling of compassion for your fellow-man.
It's wrong because you do something that you don't want to happen to you.
I really don't understand why you think this answer is inadequate.

[Valandil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ruinel
I heard something interesting just the other day, that I'd like to share and expand on.

Someone said that they were disturbed by the growing number of Atheists in the world and particularly in the US. They feared that this country (the US) would turn immoral and unethical because there would be no god to guide our conscience.

It's very funny that they said this. I actually chuckled.

You see, christians can always ask for their god's forgiveness. That forgiveness would be granted, no matter what horrific crime they committed. "Poof" they enter heaven simply by repenting and asking their god to forgive them.
[QUOTE]

(just omiting some of your quote to shorten my post - and because there's no need to answer that portion) (EDIT: but I still didn't do this quite right because this stuff is still showing up within the "quote block")

Of all the criminals in prisons today (in the US), how many do you think are Atheists? I seriously doubt that more than 5% are such. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any statistics on the Net to confirm my beliefs, so if anyone finds this, I'd be grateful to know the real count. The vast majority of prisoners are christians, I believe.

Does this mean that we need to fear the christians who rape, steal, murder, bugger little boys, etc.? Maybe. Maybe not.

What are your thoughts on this?

The growing number of atheists DOES make me concerned... but not about the decline of our society. I am concerned much more about these people in an eternal sense...

I am also concerned about those who lay claim to a "Christianity" of culture, or heritage, or even of a belief that does not affect the actions... they are not quite getting it for one reason or another. It could be an "easy believism" or "cheap grace" - but they have not made Christ the most important thing in their lives, nor are they living their lives in submission to Him, when they could live lives of crime and do the specific things mentioned by Ruinel.

That's not what Jesus came to earth for... and it isn't why He died on the cross.

[Rían]

[WHISPER] Valandil, you need to put a "/" symbol in front of the "QUOTE" when you're at the end of the quote to show that the quote is ending. [/WHISPER]

Just replace "WHISPER" with "QUOTE" in the above example, and you'll get the idea.

[zinnite]

Originally posted by Valandil
The growing number of atheists DOES make me concerned... but not about the decline of our society. I am concerned much more about these people in an eternal sense...

This is what I was talking about.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Zinnite: At least as far as Christianity is concerned (can't speak for other religions) your statement is completely false, and, to borrow a phrase, BULL PUCKY! I do NOT attempt to live a moral life because I'm afraid of God, I don NOT do so because I'm afraid of hell! I do it for the opposite reason; because I LOVE God. To say that if religious people are moral, it's just because their afraid is no better than saying that Atheists are amoral (though I'm sure Ru would disagree ).

(I'm not trying to pick a fight)
But why do you love God? I have been "witnessed to" countless times, and it always ends with someone telling me if I don't love Jesus or love God, then I am going to spend eternity in hell. I usually ask the person if that is why they love God--so they can go to heaven instead of hell--and they often answer in the affirmative. You might be different, as I am quite aware that not all believers are the same, but it seems to me that most people who "love God" do so out of the fear of what might happen if they don't love God.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[WHISPER] Valandil, you need to put a "/" symbol in front of the "QUOTE" when you're at the end of the quote to show that the quote is ending. [/WHISPER]

Just replace "WHISPER" with "QUOTE" in the above example, and you'll get the idea.

You know, I KNEW that!!! My finger just didn't get the message when I typed it, and I didn't notice it... Better let it stand as is now or this tangent will really confuse people...

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

...it always ends with someone telling me if I don't love Jesus or love God, then I am going to spend eternity in hell.

I’m not sure what “witnessing to� is, but I do know that no one can say any given person is going to hell. That would be judging the salvation of another person, and Christians are expressly forbidden from doing that. I can’t even say that Adolf Hitler is going to hell... that’s between Adolf and God. Unfortunately, I’m not too sure if these people who have been “witnessing to� you are “witnessing� Christianity.

As far as fearing hell... I’m definitely scared of hell, and definitely scared of the possibility of going there. Why? Because the truly painful thing about hell is the absence of God’s love... and nothing scares me more than that.

--Dave

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree with Gwai that I have never seen an explanation for this: "Why is it wrong to wrong others?" that does not either (1) go against logic, or (2) go against observation. Or both

I think you have missed that some of us say it isn't always 'wrong to wrong others'.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Aden:

Is that Orthodox Christian, Orthodox Jew, or some Orthodox I don't know about?

zinnite:

This is a very interesting question, which I would love to hear answer(s) to from other Christians. I don't have the time to properly answer, but here's a quick and insufficient answer.

I love God, because He, in His awesome and unbelievable splendour, took upon himself the insignificant form of a human being, lived within that insignificant form for thirty-three years, and submitted to horrendous torture, humiliation, and maltreatment by those He came to save. I love God because He gave me to ability to accept His invitation to enter into His divine life. I love God because He is so awesome, so powerful, so infinitely greater than we, and yet he chooses to stoop down and smile upon the lives of mankind. Quite simply: I love God, because He loved me first.

"I’m definitely scared of hell, and definitely scared of the possibility of going there. Why? Because the truly painful thing about hell is the absence of God’s love... and nothing scares me more than that." Very well put.

[Falagar]

I just have an interesting question for you Christians (don't know if you've seen it before, or found an answer):
God has unlimited power, right? So he can create whatever he wants, and has unlimited strength. Question: Can he then create a stone that he himself cannot lift?

A silly question perhaps, but I had to ask.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
The growing number of atheists DOES make me concerned... but not about the decline of our society. I am concerned much more about these people in an eternal sense...

Who are you concerned about? And what do you mean 'an eternal sense'? If you mean you are concerned for my immortal soul, then why? If I'm wrong, and there really is a god (doubtful, but let's just say for argument's sake ), then that means that there's more room in heaven for you and the rest of the faithful believers.

I am also concerned about those who lay claim to a "Christianity" of culture, or heritage, or even of a belief that does not affect the actions... they are not quite getting it for one reason or another. It could be an "easy believism" or "cheap grace" - but they have not made Christ the most important thing in their lives, nor are they living their lives in submission to Him, when they could live lives of crime and do the specific things mentioned by Ruinel.

That's not what Jesus came to earth for... and it isn't why He died on the cross.

Someone who believes Jesus to be the son of god would be a Christian. Whether or not they abide by the 10 commandments, or live in the footsteps of the person they believe is the son of god and messiah, then that's a different story. I suppose by your statement, anyone who is a sinner can't be considered a Christian.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Aden
... And I believe that animals never hurt each other the way humans do. At least in that matter they behave far more civilized.

Aden, fellow Atheist, I must correct you on this one. Animals do hurt each other, even kill (including infanticide). Humans are just another animal, albeit a very well adapted animal, made by our environment to fit our environment.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Aden, fellow Atheist, I must correct you on this one. Animals do hurt each other, even kill (including infanticide). Humans are just another animal, albeit a very well adapted animal, made by our environment to fit our environment.

I think she meant psychically.

(correct me if I'm wrong)

[brownjenkins]

Animals do hurt each other, even kill (including infanticide).

very rarely though (among those of the same species), and almost always for reasons that help preserve the particular animal's society as a whole... only mankind kills it's own in ways that are detrimental to their species' survival

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Who are you concerned about? And what do you mean 'an eternal sense'? If you mean you are concerned for my immortal soul, then why? If I'm wrong, and there really is a god (doubtful, but let's just say for argument's sake ), then that means that there's more room in heaven for you and the rest of the faithful believers.

"more room" won't be an issue... the goal is to maximize those who get there

Someone who believes Jesus to be the son of god would be a Christian. Whether or not they abide by the 10 commandments, or live in the footsteps of the person they believe is the son of god and messiah, then that's a different story. I suppose by your statement, anyone who is a sinner can't be considered a Christian.

Be careful of your terms. There are different kinds of "belief" - this needs to be a life-changing one. In fact, I will attest that when I became a Christian, it wasn't a matter of 'changing my mind' - I was literally 'changed' - and knew it. Also, I am BOTH a "sinner" (though saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience) AND a "Christian".

My concern for those who wear the label "Christian" loosely, is that they will find THEY are the ones to whom Jesus says; "Depart from me, I know you not" I DON'T relish the thought of even seeing that.

Our salvation is NOT dependent upon our actions - how good we can be, BUT our actions, speaking as a Christian of and to other Christians, should be shaped by our relationship with God.

[Ruinel]

Valandil, what religion would you classify someone who believes in your god, believes the bible is the word of your god, and believes that Jesus was the son of god (and/or god in human form sent to Earth), yet would not be considered "saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience"?