Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Al Gore, among others, including senior Republicans such as Jesse Helms (!), co-sponsored a resolution imposing sanctions on Saddam for his use of poison gas against the Kurds



And of course, Bob Dole went to Iraq and pronounced Hussein as "someone we can work with"- knowing he had gassed the Kurds- hey, what's a few dead bodies when there's wheat deals to be cut?

Funny how you said earlier "Nor guiding chemical attacks *cough* USA*" And yet you're "proof" shows that we didn't guide chemical attacks. Turning a blind eye and actually helping them are two separate things. I guess you like to spin it your own way to make it sound like we helped that attack

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I find it funny how you Brits speak of your leader. Tony Blair will go down as being one of the best things to ever happen for Great Britain and yet you are all so easy to criticize him. You should only be so lucky to have such a man of strong will and passion for your country. When I watched him speak to your governmental houses earlier in the year, in a sense, I wished he was our President or at least have our President hold the same character qualities that Tony Blair has. You say you wish he were gone, but years from now when he is gone, you will look back and appreciate what you had only to wish it were still there.

I admire Tony Blair for his foreign policy, but not in any way for his domestic programme. I don't suppose you're familiar with his domestic "achievements" (why should you be) but I'm sure you know that a leader isn't judged simply on what they do abroad. It's our prerogative to criticise him whenever we want to, since we elected him. And sorry, but he's a long way down in the list of the best things to happen to Britain

Didn't people in England question Churchill and want him gone as well, only to find out how valuable he was to your country? History often repeats itself...

Not quite. Churchill's anti-appeasement beliefs were only one reason for keeping him on the sidelines in the 1930s. Just as important were his attitude to Indian independence (he hated the idea and said so in language that I can't quote without being sent to the political correctness thread) and his mediocre performance as Chancellor in the 1920s. Churchill was no saint - great war leader, not that good as a peacetime politician. If it weren't for WW2, no one would remember him, so I think his inter-war contemporaries can be forgiven for overlooking him.

Gaffer - I'm guessing that "Bliar" for "Blair" isn't a typo?

[Hemel]

Quick wander off topic to answer this ...

Hemel - A person when a person shares the same opinion as someone else - it is "rah rah rah, go get them" when someone does not share the same opinions - then it is "that person is arrogant and argumentative" It's human nature. You don't see the snide comments of the people you agree with such as this made by The gaffer...

Ah, do you actually know what I think and with whom I agree (if anyone?). Or are you assuming that because I am in England I am 'European', think 'European', agree with 'Europeans' .... ?

But actually I really don't care whether someone shares my opinion on a matter or not. But, like I said before, I do care how someone expresses that opinion. One of the reasons why is illustrated by this, that you also said

There was so much anti-Americanism before - which has now made me react to this constant America bashing ...

Bashing, rudeness, labelling, unwillingness to listen and to see another view aren't, as I think your statement might hint, conducive to good relations. Oh, and I don't find them particularly persuasive either



Gaffer - heheheheh! But not quite Port Meadow

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Ah, do you actually know what I think and with whom I agree (if anyone?). Or are you assuming that because I am in England I am 'European', think 'European', agree with 'Europeans' .... ?

It's the fact that you were agreeing with The Gaffer. So that is why. You seem to suffer from the same assumption problem you accuse me of...

Or are you assuming that because I am in England I am 'European', think 'European', agree with 'Europeans' .... ?

Do yiou REALLY think that Americans feel that all Europeans think alike or that England is the same as France? NO - we don't. But the thing is - we do know that the majority of Europe agrees with each other on these issues - except for Eastern Europe.

But actually I really don't care whether someone shares my opinion on a matter or not. But, like I said before, I do care how someone expresses that opinion. One of the reasons why is illustrated by this, that you also said Bashing, rudeness, labelling, unwillingness to listen and to see another view aren't, as I think your statement might hint, conducive to good relations. Oh, and I don't find them particularly persuasive either

Well then - maybe SOME Europeans should stop constantly bashing the US every chance they get. America is fed up with the attitude - that is one of the reasons America (and me in particular) has been acting this way toward Europe - while Europe has been acting this way toward us for DECADES.

Have you ever been to America? Because I have been to Europe.

[Hemel]

Heh Well, JD, I looked over my couple of posts that seem to have started this offshoot, and I'm not convinced that in them I'm agreeing with The Gaffer.

I'm glad to see that 'Americans' don't think that 'Europeans' are homogeneous. I'd suggest that the same operates in reverse. So I'm wondering just how meaningful or indeed helpful are the labels that seem to be being used in this discussion.

Well then - maybe SOME Europeans should stop constantly bashing the US every chance they get. America is fed up with the attitude - that is one of the reasons America (and me in particular) has been acting this way toward Europe - while Europe has been acting this way toward us for DECADES.

If there's been bashing going on then I'm sure you are upset, and understandably so. As I said, I don't think bashing (whichever direction it's going in) is particularly useful - or productive.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Heh Well, JD, I looked over my couple of posts that seem to have started this offshoot, and I'm not convinced that in them I'm agreeing with The Gaffer.

Then tell me you don't. Or that it was NOT directed at me. Because it seems very clearly it was.

I'm glad to see that 'Americans' don't think that 'Europeans' are homogeneous. I'd suggest that the same operates in reverse. So I'm wondering just how meaningful or indeed helpful are the labels that seem to be being used in this discussion.

About as useful as the many terms I have seen used by Europeans and other nationalities toward Americans. Through my two years of posting - I have discovered that most people in the world have no idea that we have state rights and things - that California and New Jersey are no more alike than France and Germany. Yet you guys are too busy to learn about our states and just paint us with a broad brush.

If people would stop constantly bashing America - I would stop having to explain that certain things are in our interest - and don't always conform to what they want. If you look at the posts - you would see that there is hardly anything nice said about America from non-Americans.

If there's been bashing going on then I'm sure you are upset, and understandably so. As I said, I don't think bashing (whichever direction it's going in) is particularly useful - or productive.

I tried bringing understanding between countries - check out the What's your country like thread. But the thing is - hardly anyone even put anything in it really and then let's see - the last posts were from Gimli - saying that his countyr sucks (USA) - but he's from Canada and before that LuthienTinuviel couldn't wait to get out of the US and how much she hates it here. Oh well - so much for trying to bring some understanding among countries. Oh - and then most people wanted to talk to BoP because she's from New Zealand and everyone loves New Zealand now because of Jackson. HMMM - maybe we should have Jackson make a movie for America - then everyone around the world will love and admire us for all the good things we do. Oh - well - damned if we do damned if we don't. That's how the world treats America. Let's see - if we wait - it's you didn't get involved fast enough. If we do nothing - it's why didn't you do something. If we go in right away - why didn't you wait. Damned if we do - damned if we don't.

By the way - look at when I started that thread - 7/3/02. That was over a year ago and at that time there was a thread called "Anti-American Sentiments" - which was actually started in response to the many anti-American posts that were flooding Entmoot. That was even BEFORE Iraq.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Then tell me you don't. Or that it was NOT directed at me. Because it seems very clearly it was.

I thought it was directed at you as well, lol...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Oh - and then most people wanted to talk to BoP because she's from New Zealand and everyone loves New Zealand now because of Jackson. HMMM - maybe we should have Jackson make a movie for America - then everyone around the world will love and admire us for all the good things we do. Oh - well - damned if we do damned if we don't.

I'm sure they'd find a way to spin it so we are hated in that too...While I hate the way many people view Americans, it actually makes me laugh and smirk, because a lot of it in my opinion stems from ignorance and jealousy anyway, so it's really a coin flip.

I know there are a lot of people outside of the US, whether they are European or Asian or whoever that appreciate America and know that not all Americans are the same. I appreciate those people who are open-minded and aren't blind-eyed. Sometimes it makes me mad when I hear someone talk ill about America or Americans, especially when it comes from a country where my ancestors are from, because after all, 99.999% of Americans came from other countries somewhere in their ancestry, so we often times carry along those same traditions from those countries but have only incorporated that into an Americanized version. Ok, I will stop ranting now

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I'm sure they'd find a way to spin it so we are hated in that too...While I hate the way many people view Americans, it actually makes me laugh and smirk, because a lot of it in my opinion stems from ignorance and jealousy anyway, so it's really a coin flip.

I know what you mean. The thing is too - most of the people complaining about America and tell us how everything is - have NEVER been here. They get their opinion of us through their media and news. I watch French news every night - and I see the spin they put on America. If that is common for all of Europe - no wonder most Europeans have this negative view of us. What was reallyu great was how France presented the California Governor Debates with Arnold Swartzenegger or Hurricane Isabel even.

I know there are a lot of people outside of the US, whether they are European or Asian or whoever that appreciate America and know that not all Americans are the same. I appreciate those people who are open-minded and aren't blind-eyed.

yes - I talk to several people outside the US - Europe, India and Australia and not everyone thinks that we are all the same. They are as much interested in learning about America and Americans - as I am about their countries. Which if you know me - you would know that I would like to travel the world so I can see as much as I can. I have been to 40 out of the 50 states, plus Mexico, Canada and England. If you lay a US map out on an European map - I have lived the equivalent from London England to the Ural Mountains in Russia and several places inbetween.

Sometimes it makes me mad when I hear someone talk ill about America or Americans, especially when it comes from a country where my ancestors are from, because after all, 99.999% of Americans came from other countries somewhere in their ancestry, so we often times carry along those same traditions from those countries but have only incorporated that into an Americanized version. Ok, I will stop ranting now

You continue to rant. My ancestors come from ireland, Italy, Russia, Poland and Czechloslovakia (since it split don't know if it's Czech Republic or Slovakia side my ancestors came from).

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I know what you mean. The thing is too - most of the people complaining about America and tell us how everything is - have NEVER been here. They get their opinion of us through their media and news. I watch French news every night - and I see the spin they put on America. If that is common for all of Europe - no wonder most Europeans have this negative view of us. What was reallyu great was how France presented the California Governor Debates with Arnold Swartzenegger or Hurricane Isabel even.

yes - I talk to several people outside the US - Europe, India and Australia and not everyone thinks that we are all the same. They are as much interested in learning about America and Americans - as I am about their countries. Which if you know me - you would know that I would like to travel the world so I can see as much as I can. I have been to 40 out of the 50 states, plus Mexico, Canada and England. If you lay a US map out on an European map - I have lived the equivalent from London England to the Ural Mountains in Russia and several places inbetween.

You continue to rant. My ancestors come from ireland, Italy, Russia, Poland and Czechloslovakia (since it split don't know if it's Czech Republic or Slovakia side my ancestors came from).

Yeah same with me, I want to travel the world as well and plan on doing so. In fact come this Spring I will be taking a trip to Italy, and might venture into a couple other countries on that trip, but right now it's only Italy

I am 25% Italian, 25% German, 25% Irish, 12.5% English (possibly Scottish, we aren't sure) and 12.5% Native American. All of that equals 100% Pure American Mutt My Italian side is the closest removed from the native country as my grandfather was born in Italy...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I am 25% Italian, 25% German, 25% Irish, 12.5% English (possibly Scottish, we aren't sure) and 12.5% Native American. All of that equals 100% Pure American Mutt My Italian side is the closest removed from the native country as my grandfather was born in Italy...

You remind me of Hobbits with their characteristic love for genealogy. It'll be hard for not not to think of you now as short and with hairy feet.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Eärniel
You remind me of Hobbits with their characteristic love for genealogy. It'll be hard for not not to think of you now as short and with hairy feet.

Except for the fact that I am 6'5" lol

[Earniel]

Alright mister, hand over that Entdraught. That's cheating, you know.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Alright mister, hand over that Entdraught. That's cheating, you know.

I couldn't help it, Treebeard gave it to me and it tasted so good I just kept drinking!

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by sun-star
Gaffer - I'm guessing that "Bliar" for "Blair" isn't a typo?

Well spotted.

Originally posted by Hemel

Gaffer - heheheheh! But not quite Port Meadow

Where then? * is not quite so jealous in this weather *

[Radagast]

A democratic Upper House, Gaffer? Good God, sir, you're talking revolution! That's treason!

I am totally, implacably, vehemently opposed to removing the Lords from their Chamber. So far, 72 have remained, including my father's friend the Baroness Darcy de Knayth. Up with hereditary right!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Radagast
Up with hereditary right!

I hope you are kidding. :ROLLEYES:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
A democratic Upper House, Gaffer? Good God, sir, you're talking revolution! That's treason!

I am totally, implacably, vehemently opposed to removing the Lords from their Chamber. So far, 72 have remained, including my father's friend the Baroness Darcy de Knayth. Up with hereditary right!

O.o
I agree with BeardofPants.


(((O_O))) * * * {I've lost my mind}

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Radagast
Up with hereditary right!

heh heh. The irony is, of course, that the Lords have been less right-wing than the Commons in the past 20 years. Both Thatcher and Bliar had more opposition from them than they did from our wonderful elected representatives. Unedifying stuff.

The judiciary too (of which the House of Lords is our equivalent Supreme Court), are just about the only bodies you can rely on these days to dissent effectively.

* counting the days till the Hutton Inquiry publishes *

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Funny how you said earlier "Nor guiding chemical attacks *cough* USA*" And yet you're "proof" shows that we didn't guide chemical attacks. Turning a blind eye and actually helping them are two separate things. I guess you like to spin it your own way to make it sound like we helped that attack

UUmmm - if you look in the dictionary for the definition of sarcasm...

Totally factual assessment of the situation at the time.

The Reagan Administration, being opposed to the Khomenei regime in Iran, supported Saddam Hussein by supplying him with materials to produce poison gas; they also supplied him with intelligence to direct gas attacks against the Iranians.

Knowing that Saddam had used poison gas in genocidal attacks against the Kurds, the Reagan administration, including such directly involved figures as Vice-President George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld; and Colin Powell; tried , successfully, to kill a resolution sponsored by Jesse Helms, Al Gore and other US Senators to impose sanctions on Saddam Hussein.

If you can find a statement in the above that is not true , feel free.

BTW, James Baker, just now appointed by the Bush Administration to negotiate Iraq debt payments with, among others , Saudi Arabia ($30 billion dollars) is also representing the Saudi government against the families of the victims of 9/11