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#221 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#222 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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#223 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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back atcha... http://www.abdn.ac.uk/zoohons/struthers/hind_limbs.hti Your article states "I knew, of course, that some modern whales have a pair of bones embedded in their tissues, each of which strengthens the pelvic wall and acts as an organ anchor." This is incorrect. An organ anchor? Where did he get that from? They have no usefulness whatsoever. They are completely embedded in the tissue as he says and they have no connection to any significant organ in the animal. And the animal has no control over them motor wise. So whats the point of them? And its not just hind limbs. Whales have a number of vestigial structures that would have been fully functional in their land living ancestors including the pelvic girdle and the finger muscles. Now why would god put the same stuff into whales who swim in the ocean as he put in many terrestrial species, shrink them and make them useless? What could possibly be the motivation for doing such a thing? And why not do it to other fish?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#224 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#225 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#226 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Do a search on talk-origins, your "bible" ![]() Here's one article: talk origins article that references chemical evolution I'll grant that when people say "evolution", they're referring to biological evolution, but I won't grant that abiogenesis is NOT a part of evolutionary studies, and neither will some chemical evolution scientists, I would imagine!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-16-2005 at 07:06 PM. |
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#227 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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It's almost 2 am over here but right now I'm watching a show on CNN where they make fun of the creationism/evolution debate. It's really funny
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#228 | |||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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#229 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
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and the whales need those fingers for steering their way around in the water
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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#230 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Quote:
By the way, basically everything I've read about rudimentary animal bones and organs being useful, comes from creationistic websites. Could anyone provide a link neutral site - neither creationistic nor pro-evolution - with the same info? There are few whale-creatures in the fossil record but they exist. What is interesting is that the older the fossils, the bigger their pelvic bones are. That's logical if the whales decended from land-living mammals. That's also what the theory of evolution would predict. The pelvis bones are not the only vestiges from the whales' past. They also have vestigial ear muscles from the time they had ears to wiggle. They have vestigial olfactory nerves from when they could smell. They have little muscle in their vestigial diaphragm - whales fill their lungs using the movement of their ribs, not the diaphragm. In order words, whales are full of rudimentary mammalian structures - structures that were bigger in the fossils of intermediates of land-living and sea-living creatures. Could be that some of the structures still have some function left but it doesn't change the fact that the same structures were bigger and more useful in older whale skeletons. Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#231 | |||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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![]() I note that the true definition of evolution is really simply "a change in allele frequencies over time." Now you can call this the "biological" definition of evolution in an attempt to lump evolution in with abiogenesis but that would be misleading. In the context of discussing life, evolution is simply that. Nothing more. So where it all came from is irrelevant to evolution. Where as its essential to creationism. Because evolution is simply a mechanism whereas creationism isnt.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#232 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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Quote:
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EDIT: Have a look at the link Jonathan provided. It pretty much lays everything out for you right there. Pages and pages of evidence...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 09-17-2005 at 10:23 AM. |
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#233 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: College!
Posts: 1,976
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What about the possibility of (gasp!) theistic evolution? That would explain all of this. (I hope I'm not being heretical, all ye fundamentalists!
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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#234 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Lief - the sudden change from human-like creatures with large brains but without (apparently) as much actual mental power as modern H. sapiens is called the "Great Leap Forward," at least in my Anthropology class last year. It is fairly well documented in the archaeological record that we go from apes with big brains who are erect (and who most anthropologists would say still share our species, actually) to much smarter ones who use more advanced tools and make other major innovations. These are our direct ancestors, and the change occurs about 50,000 years ago.
They start making tools out of other substances than stone in greater numbers. They make art, which is much less common before. They eat a greater variety of food. They make stone blades (see my previous post) instead of merely flaking off pieces of rock. They trade. They live in larger groups and bury their dead more elaborately. There isn't a particularly brilliant explanation of this, but a couple I've heard are a)the wrinkles in the brain, which are what allow more complex neural connections, started developing more and b)the left and right hemispheres of the brain began to differentiate, allowing them to specialize. As for "faster evolution," one of the most prevalent varieties of the theory of evolution is "punctuated equilibrium," in which not much changes for a long time, and then environment stress occurs (see - Sahara desert) and evolution proceeds very quickly. The idea is that if life is good, there isn't enough stress on the species to make it change significantly, so it doesn't. When stress increases (to a point - obviously, at some point extinction occurs) faster changes happen.
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#235 | |||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
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#236 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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![]() If you do a search on "chemical evolution science" or something along those lines, I think you'll find I'm correct.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-19-2005 at 01:21 AM. |
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#237 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Here's an example - from the National Academy Of Sciences : here. It looks like "scientific circles" here are familiar with both "chemical evolution" and "biological evolution". As are "scientific circles" in the National Science Foundation (nsf.gov) and the National Science Teachers' Association.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#238 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#239 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Quote:
There are obvious issues with a lot of the techniques and educated guesswork which are used in evolutionary biology. I'd characterise this as "normal science" for an area where you can't directly observe macro outcomes. I guess it's problematic because it's hard/impossible to have any kind of evolution and still believe in the literal truth of the Bible. Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-19-2005 at 08:49 AM. |
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#240 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
we simply do not know the intellectual capacity of a 50,000-year-ago human... we know physically, and maybe even genetically, they appeared "very similar"... but so do modern day monkeys the "genetic difference" between someone with an IQ of 60 and someone with an IQ of 200 is unknown to us... so saying that humans were "just as smart" 50,000 years ago is making a conclusion based on no evidence they were smart enough to use and make basic tools (as monkeys are), but that is all we know for sure
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