Polictical Correctness

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

It's a generic term to say Happy Holidays because it includes everybody. Those who wish to change it to Merry Christmas want to exclude all but themselves. It was the Yuletide for a lot longer than it was Christmas. But we don't call it Yuletide anymore because that would exclude the Christians.

Oh my god - what happens if they don't celebrate the holiday at all? What happens if to them there is no holiday at this time of year? There are many people who do not celebrate Chanukah, Christmas or Kwanza you know. Maybe we should just stop wishing anyone a Happy holiday for fear of offending them.

I grew up Catholic - I celebrate Christmas - I therefore wish people a Merry Christmas. I am atheist - but I like the tradition of Christmas - I will continue to wish people a Merry Christmas - unless I know the person is Jewish - then I will wish them a Happy Chanukah DURING Chanukah. It's no longer Chanukah though - it is Christmas time. Therefore there is NOTHING wrong with wishing people a Merry Christmas.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As for being polite - where was the outrage from the democratic party when Whoopie Goldberg was comparing Bush to her body parts? There was none - so again - don't try to claim that you somehow have this great enlightment about politeness.

Comedy is not expected to be polite. I think you're exagerating and putting unwarranted expectations on people.

But I think it is a fair expectation to expect politeness from kids in high school. That's where they are supposed to be learning it. And it is warranted to expect politeness from TV news anchors. To extend that expectation to two guys having a beer in a bar is hilarious. I agree. But it still proves my point. The objections to having to be PC are mostly objections to being expected to be polite.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Entmoot is not a free society with a freedom of speech amendment. You can NOT force people in a free society to be polite. As for being polite - where was the outrage from the democratic party when Whoopie Goldberg was comparing Bush to her body parts? There was none - so again - don't try to claim that you somehow have this great enlightment about politeness.

whoopie goldberg posts to the 'moot?!?

who knew

i like to think of entmoot as an "enlightened monarchy" (or maybe gynarchy )

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

The Billy Goat Tavern. Its world famous ever since Saturday Night Live paradied it like 20 years ago. But its just shtick really. Now if you want rude service go to pretty much any restaurant in New York.

I've been to many NY restaurants and many of the ones I have gone to have not been rude. Maybe you should try a different restaurant.

And I know that that restaurant is just an act.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Oh my god - what happens if they don't celebrate the holiday at all? What happens if to them there is no holiday at this time of year? There are many people who do not celebrate Chanukah, Christmas or Kwanza you know. Maybe we should just stop wishing anyone a Happy holiday for fear of offending them.

I grew up Catholic - I celebrate Christmas - I therefore wish people a Merry Christmas. I am atheist - but I like the tradition of Christmas - I will continue to wish people a Merry Christmas - unless I know the person is Jewish - then I will wish them a Happy Chanukah DURING Chanukah. It's no longer Chanukah though - it is Christmas time. Therefore there is NOTHING wrong with wishing people a Merry Christmas.

They have the day off. It's a national holiday. This exageration is getting you nowhere, JD. I say Merry Christmas, too, unless I am talking to the lead in my barbershop quartet, when I say Happy Festival of Lights. But Sears Roebuck has Happy Holidays signs in their window because they are trying to include everyone in one sign.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Comedy is not expected to be polite. I think you're exagerating and putting unwarranted expectations on people.

I don't think it's any more unwarranted than you thinking that politeness can be legislated. I see you defend that - but if there was a cojnservative comedian making fun of gays - you would be all over it I'm sure as "just a demonstration of the right's bigotry".

But I think it is a fair expectation to expect politeness from kids in high school. That's where they are supposed to be learning it.

Funny - i always thought that was the job of the parents? But you're right - I guess becuase parents aren't doing their jobs anymore - they have to be taugt in the 5 hours they're at school.

And it is warranted to expect politeness from TV news anchors. To extend that expectation to two guys having a beer in a bar is hilarious. I agree. But it still proves my point. The objections to having to be PC are mostly objections to being expected to be polite.

You can have the opinion that that's what it is - however I disagree. Politiness has nothing to do with being PC. It's like the stupid laws in Germany against the left over nazis - the hatred is still there - meeting underground - but don't talk about it above ground because you'll be arrested. But let is fester in dark basements where no one can see what they are plotting and no one can really speak out against them.

I'd personally rather have the KK openingly having demonstrations - so people like me who disagree with them - and counter-march. Or demonstrate by closing down all the businesses in town - like they did in Idaho a couple of years ago. I can show you on 40th and Broadway I think it is - where this black guy is there all the time talking about the evil white guy and how they have to rise up. Is that PC or do you think he should be stopped?

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't think it's any more unwarranted than you thinking that politeness can be legislated. I see you defend that - but if there was a cojnservative comedian making fun of gays - you would be all over it I'm sure as "just a demonstration of the right's bigotry".

It's a rabbit trail, I think, but I'll follow. Yes, I did defend Ford Fairlane (I don't remember his name) and I also defended Sinead's right to boycott the show. I don't think we should make this an Elfhelm/JD argument. I never used the word legislation or made reference to any laws.

I do agree about the KKK, too, but if someone tells someone else to kill a third person, and the second person does, then the first person is guilty of second degree murder. I think that should be enforced more.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

They have the day off. It's a national holiday.

You said it - it is a national holiday. Now what is a national holiday? CHRISTMAS is. You can not deny that it is CHRISTMAS which is the national holiday. You can not deny that America was founded by Christians and hence - America is a Christian nation - even if we do not have nationally imposed religion. America has a Christian heritage and to ignore this fact is to ignore our country's history.

This exageration is getting you nowhere, JD.

I'm not exagerating. You just had no other response because you are aware that not everyone celebrates any holiday. BTW - the term HOLIday - comes from the word HOLY-day. Maybe someone will soon find that offensive and we will just have to start saying "Happy Winter Vacation Day" to make sure we don't offend anyone becuase of PCness.

I say Merry Christmas, too, unless I am talking to the lead in my barbershop quartet, when I say Happy Festival of Lights. But Sears Roebuck has Happy Holidays signs in their window because they are trying to include everyone in one sign.

Sears is just trying to make money. And the term Festival of Lights is just plain stupid if you think that's being "inclusive". Does your Barbershop Quartet only do Chanukah songs since that is the TRUE "Festival of Lights". I don't knwo how many Jewish people you know in Portland - I didn't really see any temples out there when I lived there. So maybe you don't know that "Festival of Lights" is a Jewish term for Chanukah.

Hanukkah: The Festival of Lights

The Jewish holiday Hanukkah literally lights up the home. The eight-day, 2,000-year-old holiday, also called the Festival of Lights, celebrates God's glory, an ancient victory of the Jews over their enemies, and the freedom Jews enjoy today.

[Beor]

I think that most people who raise a stink about people saying or displaying Merry Christmas dont really care, they are just trying to make noise, its all really stupid, honestly.

Is anyone here offended by me saying, "Merry Christmas"? If so let me know, and I mean really offended.

I dont get offended by Happy Haunkah (sp?) signs, nor am I offended by really anything else having to do with the holidays. Call it what you will, but the idea is the same. We all go spend money on those we love, and some we dont, eat lots of good food, and drink it up. Who cares what its called.

By the way, December 25 is the day the early pagans used to praise the sun god, or something like that.

Merry Christmas!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

It's a rabbit trail, I think, but I'll follow. Yes, I did defend Ford Fairlane (I don't remember his name) and I also defended Sinead's right to boycott the show. I don't think we should make this an Elfhelm/JD argument.

I didn't think this is an Elfhelm/JD argument - I thought this was a discussion on PCness.

I'm glad you defended Sinead's to have free will to do what she wanted.

I never used the word legislation or made reference to any laws.

PCness is a way of legislating politeness and you did say this -- "Politeness can be legislated, as it is here, and enforced." So where did you say it shouldn't be legislated again - because I don't seem to be able to find that? I can only find where you say that politeness CAN be legislated.

I do agree about the KKK, too, but if someone tells someone else to kill a third person, and the second person does, then the first person is guilty of second degree murder. I think that should be enforced more.

I believe that is enforced quite often. It's called hiring a hitman. And a lot of times that occurs when spouses want to off their husband or wife so they can marry someone else - or inherit life insurance and things. I don't see what that has to do with PCness though at all.

[Elfhelm]

Merry Christmas to you, too! I'm sure nobody is offended.

JD, I say Festival of Lights to my friend because that is my greeting to him during his religion's holidays. When the other three of us thanked him for singing Silent Night, O Come All Ye Faithful, and other Christian carols, he said it was a pleasure. We offered to do a Hanukkah song but he said he didn't want to. He said it is a family thing, not a public thing.

You guys seem to have it backwards. The people are objecting to an attempt to force people to say Merry Christmas. Go back a few pages and read the article Inked posted. The ones trying to force their views on others are the people who want to add Merry Christmas to the Happy Holidays signs.

And JD, just because some Christians colonized North America doesn't mean Christians "founded this country". You and I both know that the fathers of the country were theists who wrote laws protecting their right to worship as they saw fit, or not, as in your case. I apologize for going down this rabbit trail, too. But Jefferson edited the miracles out of the Bible; Paine adamantly opposed organized religion; even Washington, who was a devout Christian, put language into a treaty that said that the US is not a Christian nation; and Franklin more or less abandoned his Quaker roots for Unitarianism.

And etymologies don't force definitions to stay the same. For instance, if the etymology of "kind" means cattle, we aren't forced to say "moo" every time someone says we're kind. So giving the etymology of holiday doesn't mean atheists like yourself are supposed to go to church on Christmas.

Political correctness is not legislated. It is the social reality we live in. You'll only shoot your own foot by being un-PC, except in your clique. Nobody will put you in jail for being rude, but you could lose your job when the time comes to cut one person from the rolls. They might officially lay you off because of tight budgets, but their choice of who to lay off can be influenced by politeness or rudeness. So, instead of trying to get everybody to allow you to be rude, maybe it would be wiser to be polite.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It's called hiring a hitman. And a lot of times that occurs when spouses want to off their husband or wife so they can marry someone else - or inherit life insurance and things.

You mentioned the KKK and I am talking about their literature. If they print something that says to kill someone, they should be held responsible for the actions of those who read what they wrote. The line I'm drawing is the difference between free speech and encouraging crime. A line that was blurred in a previous post. I felt it needed to be un-blurred.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

JD, I say Festival of Lights to my friend because that is my greeting to him during his religion's holidays. When the other three of us thanked him for singing Silent Night, O Come All Ye Faithful, and other Christian carols, he said it was a pleasure. We offered to do a Hanukkah song but he said he didn't want to. He said it is a family thing, not a public thing.

That's good - so why do you say "Happy Festival of Lights" again? I'm sure not everyone you are singing to is Jewish - especially since you said that you are singing Christmas songs. Don't you think that saying "Happy Festival of Lights" is exclusionary since that refers to Chanukah?

You guys seem to have it backwards. The people are objecting to an attempt to force people to say Merry Christmas. Go back a few pages and read the article Inked posted. The ones trying to force their views on others are the people who want to add Merry Christmas to the Happy Holidays signs.

Actually - the thing is that stores used to say "Merry Christmas". YOu might notice that Macy's Thanksgiving parade ends with Santa coming at the end and was a way of for Macy's to celebrate the US (it was started by immigrants who worked at Macy's and it was the employees who marched in the parade). PCness is what has TAKEN OFF the Merry Christmas from the signs. I think - and this is something you seem to not understand - is that many christians feel like their religion is constantly being bashed - and it is.

And JD, just because some Christians colonized North America doesn't mean Christians "founded this country". You and I both know that the fathers of the country were theists who wrote laws protecting their right to worship as they saw fit, or not, as in your case. I apologize for going down this rabbit trail, too. But Jefferson edited the miracles out of the Bible; Paine adamantly opposed organized religion; even Washington, who was a devout Christian, put language into a treaty that said that the US is not a Christian nation; and Franklin more or less abandoned his Quaker roots for Unitarianism.

yes - and while leading the troops - Washington lead them in prayer, religious oaths have been a part of our government from the time of the Continental Congress, etc. Just because they wanted a country which did not force a religion on the citizenship - does not mean that they did not PUBLICLY worship or display their religion during government functions.

And etymologies don't force definitions to stay the same. For instance, if the etymology of "kind" means cattle, we aren't forced to say "moo" every time someone says we're kind. So giving the etymology of holiday doesn't mean atheists like yourself are supposed to go to church on Christmas.

Doesn't stop people from being offended by things. All it takes is for one person and the ACLU to make a stink about the word Holiday and you'll see it wiped from the American lexicon. You can live in denial all you like.

Political correctness is not legislated. It is the social reality we live in. You'll only shoot your own foot by being un-PC, except in your clique.

There you go again. Can you please inform me of what "my clique" is? You seem to know me oh so well - I'm sure you know EXACTKLY how I am and who I hang out with.

Nobody will put you in jail for being rude, but you could lose your job when the time comes to cut one person from the rolls. They might officially lay you off because of tight budgets, but their choice of who to lay off can be influenced by politeness or rudeness. So, instead of trying to get everybody to allow you to be rude, maybe it would be wiser to be polite.

Again - PCness isn't about being rude or polite. It's about controlling speech and thought.

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Political correctness is not legislated. It is the social reality we live in. You'll only shoot your own foot by being un-PC, except in your clique. Nobody will put you in jail for being rude, but you could lose your job when the time comes to cut one person from the rolls. They might officially lay you off because of tight budgets, but their choice of who to lay off can be influenced by politeness or rudeness. So, instead of trying to get everybody to allow you to be rude, maybe it would be wiser to be polite.

That's about as messed-up thinking as you can get.

It's not about 'politeness' - that's either a sad mistake or a lie. The politically correct crowd is just as impolite as the politically incorrect crowd - if not more so. It's about the censorship of those with differing ideologies. It's about using the law and the courts to suppress dissagreement by pretending that the expression of certain viewpoints is offensive.

Trying to say 'oh, you object to Political Correctness because you want to be rude' is ridiculous. It's the pot calling the kettle bl... african american.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

You mentioned the KKK and I am talking about their literature. If they print something that says to kill someone, they should be held responsible for the actions of those who read what they wrote. The line I'm drawing is the difference between free speech and encouraging crime. A line that was blurred in a previous post. I felt it needed to be un-blurred.

I don't think it was blurred. I was merely talking about the KKK and their freedom to state their opinions - not about resorting to violence. My post in terms of Germany's actions against Nazi or right wing groups is that they have forced them into the underground - where I think they are far more dangerous - not to mention it violates their freespeech (I was not in anyway condoning the use of violence). You seem to only want to concentrate on the violent actions - not about the many liberals who think they shouldn't even have a voice in demonstrating at all. The KKK isn't the only violent organization - there is the Black Panthers and Louis Farecan (sp) repeatedly makes threats against whites.

[Elfhelm]

I meant "your" in the generic, as in "one's own clique".

Politeness IS about controlling speech, as well as how to hold eating utensils, etc.

Christianity is no more "bashed" than any other philosophy. In fact, they have more strength in numbers.

Calling something ridiculous is too easy a cop out.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

That's about as messed-up thinking as you can get.

It's not about 'politeness' - that's either a sad mistake or a lie. The politically correct crowd is just as impolite as the politically incorrect crowd - if not more so. It's about the censorship of those with differing ideologies. It's about using the law and the courts to suppress dissagreement by pretending that the expression of certain viewpoints is offensive.

Trying to say 'oh, you object to Political Correctness because you want to be rude' is ridiculous. It's the pot calling the kettle bl... african american.

Exactly. I've always loved the term african-american Why the hell is it african american - are they less american? And why if you can no longer say "black" - it's okay to call me white? I'm not white - I'm an olive brown color. - especially when I'm tanned. African-american is just another stupid pc word that has nothing to do with being polite. Saying someone is black is not impolite.

[brownjenkins]

there is something to be said for being tactful however... while i'm all for people saying whatever they want, whenever they want... those who have a more polite/nonconfrontational demeanor tend to be a lot more influential with their povs

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Exactly. I've always loved the term african-american Why the hell is it african american - are they less american? And why if you can no longer say "black" - it's okay to call me white? I'm not white - I'm an olive brown color. - especially when I'm tanned. African-american is just another stupid pc word that has nothing to do with being polite. Saying someone is black is not impolite.

but if a "black" friend said he would prefer to be called "african american" would you refuse to on principle alone?

[inked]

Another PCc charmer, except his guy is right (of course!)

Goodbye Christmas?

By Charles Krauthammer

December 17, 2004

"Holiday celebrations where Christmas music is being sung make people feel different, and because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable.''
-- Mark Brownstein, parent, Maplewood, N.J., supporting the school board's banning of religious music from holiday concerts.

"You want my advice? Go back to Bulgaria.''
-- Humphrey Bogart, in "Casablanca.''

WASHINGTON -- It is Christmas time, and what would Christmas be without the usual platoon of annoying pettifoggers rising annually to strip Christmas of any Christian content. With some success:

School districts in New Jersey and Florida ban Christmas carols. The mayor of Somerville, Mass., apologizes for ``mistakenly'' referring to the town's ``holiday party'' as a ``Christmas party.'' The Broward and Fashion malls in South Florida put up a Hanukkah menorah but no nativity scene. The manager of one of the malls explains: Hanukkah commemorates a battle and not a religious event, although he hastens to add ``I really don't know a lot about it.'' He does not. Hanukkah commemorates a miracle, and there is no event more ``religious'' than a miracle.

The attempts to de-Christianize Christmas are as absurd as they are relentless. The United States today is the most tolerant and diverse society in history. It celebrates all faiths with an open heart and open-mindedness that, compared to even the most advanced countries in Europe, are unique.

Yet more than 80 percent of Americans are Christian and probably 95 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas. Christmas Day is an official federal holiday, the only day of the entire year when, for example, the Smithsonian museums are closed. Are we to pretend that Christmas is nothing but an orgy of commerce in celebration of ... what? The winter solstice?

I personally like Christmas because, as a day that for me is otherwise ordinary, I get to do nice things, such as covering for as many gentile colleagues as I could when I was a doctor at Massachusetts General Hospital. I will admit that my generosity had its rewards: I collected enough chits on Christmas Day to get reciprocal coverage not just for Yom Kippur, but for both days of Rosh Hashana and my other major holiday, Opening Day at Fenway.

Mind you, I've got nothing against Hanukkah, although I am constantly amused -- and gratified -- by how American culture has gone out of its way to inflate the importance of Hanukkah, easily the least important of Judaism's seven holidays, into a giant event replete with cards, presents and public commemorations as a creative way to give Jews their Christmas equivalent.

Some Americans get angry at parents who want to ban carols because they tremble that their kids might feel ``different'' and ``uncomfortable'' should they, God forbid, hear Christian music sung at their school. I feel pity. What kind of fragile religious identity have they bequeathed their children that it should be threatened by exposure to carols?

I'm struck by the fact that you almost never find Orthodox Jews complaining about a Christmas creche in the public square. That is because their children, steeped in the richness of their own religious tradition, know who they are and are not threatened by Christians celebrating their religion in public. They are enlarged by it.

It is the more deracinated members of religious minorities, brought up largely ignorant of their own traditions, whose religious identity is so tenuous that they feel the need to be constantly on guard against displays of other religions -- and who think the solution to their predicament is to prevent the other guy from displaying his religion, rather than learning a bit about their own.

To insist that the overwhelming majority of this country stifle its religious impulses in public so that minorities can feel ``comfortable'' not only understandably enrages the majority, but commits two sins. The first is profound ungenerosity toward a majority of fellow citizens who have shown such generosity of spirit toward minority religions.

The second is the sin of incomprehension -- a failure to appreciate the uniqueness of the communal American religious experience. Unlike, for example, the famously tolerant Ottoman Empire or the generally tolerant Europe of today, America does not merely allow minority religions to exist at its sufferance. It celebrates and welcomes and honors them.

America transcended the idea of mere toleration in 1790 in Washington's letter to the Newport synagogue, one of the lesser known glories of the Founding: ``It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights.''

More than two centuries later, it is time that members of religious (and anti-religious) minorities, as full citizens of this miraculous republic, transcend something too: petty defensiveness.

Merry Christmas. To all.