02-03-2009, 07:20 PM | #221 | |
Elf Lord
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So, the evidence is that people should just get a ladder and get over any small residual issues they have about losing their language, culture, and holy places. Good idea. Let the people of Gaza know we've found them a solution.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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02-03-2009, 07:43 PM | #222 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I wouldn't say it's a small residual issue the Israelis and Palestinians are having. But I'm sure you don't think so, so I'm guessing your being sarcastic.
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02-03-2009, 07:53 PM | #223 | |
Elf Lord
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So I'm willing to discuss why displacing SOME peoples is okay, and displacing OTHER peoples is an international scandal, and I'm willing to talk about how you choose which is which. Because your tone of outrage about the Palestinians doesn't display much balance, imo. I'm Irish American.(muchly) You can't BEGIN to imagine how radical those folks get about "the homeland". And we've had our share of bombers too, yes? Quite recently I was being rushed out of the Tube in London because my crazy cousins might be leaving a ticking package on it. So, explain to me why Palestine is for the Palestinians, no matter how they get it, and Israel is always wrong. I got time.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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02-03-2009, 08:11 PM | #224 | |
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For instance: - You admit, and prove, that you have little idea of what you are talking about when it comes to Sami people in Norway. - You then make the mistake of assuming you can compare the decimation of the population and culture of Native Americans with the relatively low-key hostilities that have existed between Norwegians and Sami people just because both groups are indigeneous. Is that right? - You accuse me of sweeeting the situation of the Sami. So instead of doing a bit of reading because your not prepared to accept the current reality I commented on, you say I'm "in denial' because it doesn't fit with your confused idea of the dismal state of living the Sami obviously (but, ssh, it's a secret) are in. - Wait, it gets better. All of the sudden I'm also okay'ing the displacement of Jews from their previous roots in the Middle East. I can't recall ever saying the Jewish diaspora deserved their faith. Why don't you bring me that quote! - And lastly, I read to my amazement, I am now anti-Isreali. Well it just goes to confirm my belief that you're not actually reading my posts but vaguely skimming through them, jumping over the parts where I defend Isreali policy and criticise Palestinian actions. Why do I bother
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02-03-2009, 09:48 PM | #225 |
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Coffeehouse, you're free to ignore me, if you like. But a great many of your posts deal with the "better claim" of the Palestinian people to Israeli territory.
Now, first of all, there are already Palestinians in Israeli territory. 20% of the Israeli population is already Arab/Palestinian. (And, unsurprisingly, most of those don't support the Gazan incursions.) That's 20% more than I've ever seen suggested for a Palestinian state, but, hey. So what works for you? What percentage of Israel should be Arab Palestinian? What makes a Jewish state possible? Because the Jews lived there for a long time, too. They built cities, as well as kingdoms. But their heritage is based on the center of their religious identity. That's the fact of it. For hundreds of years, they pledged each other with "To next year in Jerusalem." Is it surprising that they're happy to be "home" So when you're saying, "the vast majority" to talk about the rights of the Palestinian people...who are also, apparently, Caananites (although The Palestinians today, much like Arabs in Syria and Lebanon, constitute a culmination of centuries and millenias of displacement and replacement of peoples, cultures and languages. I don't know what criteria you use to make them a people. Except that they're not Jewish. As for indigenous peoples? There are over 2 million First Americans in the US. And almost everything you think you know about their relationship with the rest of the population is all in your imagination. It's a complicated family, the US.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
02-03-2009, 10:26 PM | #226 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Might it right.
It's the way it's always been, and it's the way things will always be. If not for the oil in the Middle East, we wouldn't give the conflicts there any more heed than we do those in South America or Africa.
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02-03-2009, 11:20 PM | #227 |
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Sadly, BJ, I probably agree. But since I know dozens of people who have spent time in Israel, I suspect money isn't the only explanation.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
02-03-2009, 11:55 PM | #228 | |
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You seem to mix opinions I have, with opinions you think I have. For example when you ask me "What percentage of Israel should be Arab Palestinian?" are you asking me about the internal demographics of Israel (those statistics you can find on the Internet right?), or are you presuming that I'm really argueing for a one-state solution where Palestinians become a part of Israel? If you had paid attention to my posts you'd quickly see that I've never advocated a one-state solution. The Israelis would never agree to it (the Palestinians most likely would not agree to it either), and I don't think it is feasible for many reasons. That's why I keep repeating the requirements of a two-state solution, Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, and a stop in rocket and suicide bombing attacks by Palestinians. Anyways, stop insulting with comments like this (Which seem to come out of the blue when you're arguments are on thin ice): Seriously? What possibly grounds do you have to measure my or anyone else's knowledge about this theme (or any other theme) when you don't know me? It's really arrogant.
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02-04-2009, 12:13 AM | #229 |
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Well, I've always been arrogant, so that wouldn't be much of a surprise. But also, accurate information about racial issues in the United States isn't widely reported, so it's a safe assumption that most people who think they know something about it are talking through their hats.
So, your point of view is that Israel should withdraw from Gaza, and that Gaza would constitute a Free Palestine?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
02-04-2009, 03:13 AM | #230 | ||
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Keep your disagreement against the argument, not the poster folks. This is a hot issue and it can easily get out of hand.
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02-04-2009, 09:00 AM | #231 | |
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I think there is a slight myth to the view that only oil&gas conflicts receive adequate attention. Here are some conflicts which get, at least in Norway, much attention: 1) War in Afghanistan 2) Congolese War 3) Sri Lankan-LTTE War 4) Israeli-Palestinian conflict 5) Conflict in Zimbabwe Unless you mean by 'we' the major American media like CNN, Fox, etc. in which case I'll just say no comment
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 02-04-2009 at 09:02 AM. |
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02-04-2009, 09:39 AM | #232 |
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Now, here's a government that really works for the people:
http://charter.net/news/read.php?ps=...ARSDCCLM_UNEWS HAMAS STEALS (oops, that was SEIZES) FOOD AND BLANKETS TO DISRUPT AID....... "JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas police in Gaza seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday, threatening to fracture relations between the international agency that cares for most of Gaza's residents and the territory's militant rulers. Hamas policemen forcibly broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening and confiscated 3,500 blankets and over 4,000 food parcels, said Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Gunness said the incident was "absolutely unacceptable." He said police confiscated aid meant for 500 families after U.N. officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Similar U.N. aid packages had already been distributed to 70,000 residents over the past two weeks. Ahmad Kurd, the Hamas Minister of Social Affairs, did not deny the seizure of the aid Wednesday. He charged the U.N. was giving the aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents. ..." I guess they can sell 'em to "uncontrolled insurgents" who need to keep warm whilst firing rockets and mortars, eh?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-04-2009 at 09:41 AM. Reason: addenda |
02-04-2009, 09:52 AM | #233 |
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Hardly surprising though is it. It's retarded, and unresponsible. Typical anti-civilian behaviour of Hamas.
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02-04-2009, 03:28 PM | #234 |
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But, CH, these are these people you expect the USA tro bring to the table and accomplish what none else has done?
I keep wondering why?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-04-2009, 03:31 PM | #235 | |
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Hamas is a tool of Israel!!!
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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02-04-2009, 05:18 PM | #236 | |
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Bringing Hamas to the table is definitely possible. The political faction of the organisation has many times uttered its willingness to sit down and negotiate. As we speak Hamas' talks with the government of Egypt (concerning the recent cease-fire) is being conveyed to amongst others, the United States. When Hamas sees that it is in its interest to cooperate with Fatah in the West Bank it is only a question of time before diplomats from the US, EU, Norway, etc. are sitting at the same round-table as Hamas representatives. It's a hard uphill struggle to accomplish this because it means that Hamas must acknowledge that it its interests are more served by an end to hostilities than a continuation of them. This is why it's a very good step that the Obama Administration sent to the Middle East now as its special envoy George Mitchell, who brokered the peace process in Northern Ireland. Eventually Hamas must sit at the table too. You can't ignore such a major player in this conflict when peace is being brokered, even though they commit detestable actions. But we are talking about security for Israelis and Palestinians right? Worth it.
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02-04-2009, 08:28 PM | #237 | |
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Our initial support for Israel had to do with their proximity to regions we cared about back when proximity meant a lot for defense purposes, mainly Soviet Russia and the oil rich nations we weren't so close to in the 50s and 60s and 70s. These days, proximity is less important, and we have many other allies and semi-allies in the same region that can play the same role Israel once held exclusively. Take away the oil card, and the need to be actively involved in that region shrinks even more. That's not to say that we won't always have some interests in every part of the world, but I think that our interests in that region have long since peaked and shall slowly decline to the amount of attention you see us pay to Africa and South America (or Louisiana ) over the coming decades, which is drastically less.
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02-04-2009, 08:42 PM | #238 |
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Yeah. I think that's a fair point. The geopolitics of oil direct great swathes of the US treasury into the oddest of alliances, like the special relationship with Saudi Arabia. Take away oil from that equation and there's virtually nothing left but a very big pile of sand and a lot of American dollars.
Perhaps the relevance of the Middle East will decline. In it's place comes... China? The new, surging player on the world stage. I think the center of gravity on this planet will shift thither.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 02-04-2009 at 08:43 PM. |
02-05-2009, 04:33 PM | #239 |
Elf Lord
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El Tel, if that referenced site were true, how do they explain the failure of Israel to aggrandize territory with every war they have won? Just askin'. But I've yet to meet a conspiracy theory that could not manage an explanation when it had to because.................all the evidence is hidden!
Why weren't the demands for peace-making made and enforced by the UN? What means will the USA use to force HAMAS to the table? I'm all ears.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-05-2009, 05:33 PM | #240 | |||||
Elf Lord
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By the way, those rockets that "rarely hits buildings and almost never kill people" can paralyze all Israeli population 40 km from Gaza Strip (over one million). And they did hit many building, but luckily most people had the wits to be near shelters. Quote:
I agree, we "maimed yet another new generation of Gazans from the youngest infant to teenagers".. but I feel we had no choice. How would any other country respond to such an attack? For over a month Israel didn't retaliate at all and tried to reach a cease fire agreement. Unfortunately there's no point to negotiate with Hamas, it seems, as they never compromise; and they tried to pressure Israel by shooting rockets, believing Israel wouldn't respond (Hence the success in the initial attack). Quote:
I do believe we should allow most kinds of merchandise to enter (with trucks); still, to ensure that no weapons get in, we need inspectors from an impartial country (such as from the EU). The idea to stir up the Palestinians against Hamas's government by not letting any goods into Gaza failed; continuing the almost complete blockade would only result in more bloodshed, and there's no point in abusing the people of Gaza like this anyway. Quote:
I feel both nations realize now what the final solution would be, more or less. '67 borders, splitting Jerusalem, no right of return to Palestinian refugees. Two countries for two people. Yet in recent years it seems like neither side really wishes to sign a peace treaty that would end this ongoing war.. By the way, elections in Israel in 5 days. Looks like the right, especially Avigdor Lieberman, is going to be the big winner (The last polls predict he'll be the third biggest party). This is bad news for all of us, who only wish this conflict to be over. I vote Meretz btw. |
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