12-23-2003, 08:45 PM | #2261 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-24-2003, 12:05 AM | #2262 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Nerdanel,
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The words of the fathers of the second Vatican Council expresses very well the Catholic Church’s position regarding those of non-Christian religions: Men look to their different religions for an answer to the unsolved riddles of human existence... What is man? What is the meaning and purpose of life? What is upright behavior, and what is sinful? Where does suffering originate, and what end does it serves? How can genuine happiness be found? What happens at death? What is judgment? What reward follows death? And finally, what is the ultimate mystery, beyond human explanation, which embraces our entire existence, from which we take our origin and towards which we tend? Throughout history even to the present day, there is among different peoples a certain awareness of a hidden power, which lies behind the course of nature and the events of human life. At times there is present even a recognition of a supreme being, or still more of a Father. This awareness and recognition results in a way of life that is imbued with a deep religious sense... Thus, in Hinduism men explore the divine mystery and express it both in the limitless riches of myth and the accurately defined insights of philosophy... Buddhism in its various forms testifies to the essential inadequacy of this changing world... So, too, other religions which are found throughout the world attempt in their own ways to calm the hearts of men by outlining a program of life covering doctrine, moral precepts and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. Yet she proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth and life (Jn 1:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life. (Nostra Aetate, 2.) I’ve already mentioned earlier the Church’s stance toward those separated Christian communities. It is notable to quote the follow, though, in regard to your question: In this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissension appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. However, one cannot charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. (Unitatis Redintegratio, 3.) Thus the Catholic Church holds that God offers his saving grace in many and various ways, and while the true Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, there are bounds of unity that extend beyond the confines of the Catholic Church to include even those of non-Christian belief. All people, in one fashion or the other, are offered sanctifying grace, and must either choose to co-operate in their own way or not to co-operate. One who has not heard the Word, or has heard the Word in such a condition as to not be able to receive it freely, can not be held at fault for not recognizing the Word. Quote:
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-24-2003 at 12:10 AM. |
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12-24-2003, 12:15 AM | #2263 | |||||
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More to follow. . .
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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12-24-2003, 12:18 AM | #2264 | |
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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12-24-2003, 12:43 AM | #2265 | |
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Edit to add: Forget the material world? Well, I can’t speak for the Buddhists, but my faith doesn’t allow me to forget about the material world. However, there are priorities. Some people place their priorities in this passing world, others place priority on that which does not pass away.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-24-2003 at 12:51 AM. |
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12-24-2003, 02:26 AM | #2266 | ||
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Random additional note: I actually like a lot of beliefs in Buddhism, and were it not for both my dislike of organized religion and that I disagree with a few points and find flaws in some, I would probably be Buddhist. Part of what I agree with is seeing the impermanence of the world we live in (see my signature ), but the way I see it, it is still the world we live in, and whether it truly matters in the end or not, I do not want to throw away everything that has any meaning to me in this world (part of why I am not Buddhist) because the world may be impermanent and transitory, but I find meaning and beauty in it all the same. ...just a bit of my own philosophy, just for fun
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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12-24-2003, 02:49 AM | #2267 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Artanis and Guillaume -
Thanks for your thoughts on the point of my story, and especially thanks to Artanis for being so patient with my odd little ways of answering her questions. The main points that you two came up with were not what I had in mind, tho - I probably should have phrased the question more exactly, because it was too vague. A better thing to ask would have been: what do you think is the most important thing that happened in the story? And I'll just go ahead and answer. I think if you asked a child what the most important part of the story was, they would say "the princess and the king got back together and lived happily ever after". And I think the child would be right. I don't think the hard struggle to get there would have been a favorite part, and I don't think there was an indication of different paths to the king; the path to the king was the one that the king made himself, so there was only one path, IMO. The goal - being reunited - was what made all the hard work and suffering worth going through. So a very relevant part of the answer to your question, IMO, is that God's GOAL in His dealings with us is always a restored relationship. Our choice to sin has rightly separated us from a holy and perfect God, and His communication with us is to do everything possible to restore the relationship. I see this over and over in both Old T. and New T. - NEVER is God interested in purely actions, but ALWAYS in heart and relationship. Verses in the Bible run like "for God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life"; "but God demonstrates His own LOVE for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...", and the list goes on and on. (I'm pretty tired now so those aren't exact quotes, but are very close, and I could give a lot more if you wanted) There are NO verses that I've ever come across that read like this: "God just loves rules and only likes people if they follow rules, and the more exactly they follow rules, the better He likes them." No, you see, like the second verse above, that God loves PEOPLE in spite of the fact that they have sinned, and also you see that God GAVE rules in the first place ONLY for our good. So as far as things like how some churches say that playing cards is bad and others say it's ok, I really think it would be more correct for the leaders to say "after thinking about this and praying about this, I feel that it's wrong for people to play cards" or vice versa. And actually, to go even further, IMO it could be perfectly fine for one person to play and another not to play, because we see in Scripture over and over that the issue is the underlying heart attitude. One person could play in perfect innocence and fun, while another person could really be tempted to cheat and get angry, so they should probably NOT play until they get that area in their life a little more under control. So to me, it says NOTHING against the fact that there is absolute truth just because different churches have some different opinions. Some are right in some areas, and some are wrong in some areas. Quote:
I'm sorry if this is incoherent - I'm rather tired, so let me know if I need to clear anything up or elaborate more. But again, I think that the goal of God's dealings with mankind is restored relationship, not rules, but the rules reflect an absolute truth, and things will always go better when one follows the rules, because that's how we're designed. But then again, there's that very interesting passage in Corinthians, again, IIRC, where Paul talks about eating meat offered to idols, and that is the balance to the whole rules idea - but I'm too tired now, I'll try to do it tomorrow, because it's really another important part of my answer.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-24-2003, 03:00 PM | #2268 | |
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Look at it this way, if people can vote for Arnold based solely on the fact that they liked the Terminator movies, then you better bet that I can vote for someone because they are against abortion based on my religious beliefs. This isn’t imposing my religion on you. The constitution protects your voice as well as mine. While I’m free to vote for someone based on the color of her hair, you are free to vote for against the same person for whatever reason you think is important. Its civic responsibility to involve myself, and my personal and public beliefs, in public debate. It is some people’s opinion that if I should be opposed to something based on my beliefs that this somehow threatens their civil liberty... what this demonstrates is their fear that the constitution won’t do its job, or they don’t like the fact that the constitution that affords them the freedom to enter into public debate, affords the same freedom to others that don’t share their views. To say that my beliefs can’t be voiced in public because someone who doesn’t share those beliefs feels this is an infringement on their civil liberties is a lie that is the foundation of despotism. You are not allowed, under the rights afforded by our constitution, to silence any voice in the public debate, and if we allow religious voices to be silenced under the guise of supporting the constitution, then the very founding principles of that document are rejected. There’s no simpler way to put this: the constitution protects all people, and affords to all citizens the rights to represent their beliefs, religious or otherwise, in public. To say that the constitution limits your or my voice in the public debate in anyway is wrong. This is a grave, and extremely dangerous, misinterpretation of the constitution.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-24-2003, 03:24 PM | #2269 |
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Good gods, I never said that! Again, I think you're misinterpreting. I never said your opinions, whatever they may be based upon, should be excluded because they're based on religion. Please tell me where I said your voice should be limited? What I said is that policy should not be made based on an ideal or belief that is not held by the whole population. But now I'm just getting in to my own personal ideals. But I think you were misinterpreting what I said. What I really object to is the idea of groups (factions ) forming based on religious ideals. If that makes sense. I mean, yeah, groups form, people lobby or support someone for election, but when the group is trying to, say, reform the country so that we are more religously sound, that gets really squicky.
And I'm going to stop now, because we're getting rather off-topic, and I really am going to have to admit that anything to do with the US government has gone through my head like a sieve, and I don't want to make myself sound any more stupid than I already have. THe stuff I remember is for some reason centered mostly around theology, philosophy, Japanese history, and early Europe. Not US government. Er.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
12-24-2003, 05:37 PM | #2270 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Hi Guillaume, thanks for your thoughts on my question. And RÃ*an, I've read your posts, and I'll think about what you've said and respond later, right now I've been drinking too much Aquavit.
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12-24-2003, 05:54 PM | #2271 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK - Merry Christmas, everyone! I'll be back in a few days, hopefully not too many pounds heavier!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-24-2003, 06:49 PM | #2272 |
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Merry Christmas, Rian and everyone else here that celebrates it!
Hey, anyone have any thoughts of free will and salvation? Hmm, will read Rian's story again. That was interesting, and then will write.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
12-24-2003, 07:19 PM | #2273 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Merry Christmas to all!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-24-2003, 08:44 PM | #2274 |
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Merry Christmas all, and Happy New Year. I'm moving on Saturday, so I'll be away for awhile. Our discussions here have been great, and God bless all of you!
--Dave PS Once again there is nothing wrong with religiously based PACs... if the ACLU and Greenpeace can do it, we Christians should have the same right.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-24-2003, 08:49 PM | #2275 | |
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And must I repeat myself again? There's nothing stopping you from forming groups. If don't like it, well, it's my problem, isn't it? I just don't like the idea of laws that restrict my freedom based on a religiously based morality. (i.e. abortion. But that's for another thread. . .) That's all I was saying, le Marechal.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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12-25-2003, 09:32 AM | #2276 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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EG, a quick OT question, since I bet you'd know the answer: What language would the people in the area of Hungary Dracula is set in have spoken at the timeframe of the book?
I don't think he was saying they were religious organizations; I believe his point was that there are nonreligious ones, so there's nothing wrong with religious ones, either. I could be wrong, though.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-25-2003, 11:57 AM | #2277 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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12-25-2003, 02:00 PM | #2278 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Yes; those in Invincible Ignorance of the Good News of Christ and of His Church sometimes have Baptism of Desire.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-25-2003, 04:16 PM | #2279 | |
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They would have spoken Romanian, I think. I don't know for sure, though. I think in the book when Harker is traveling to the castle, isn't there that bit with him in the inn and he hears a more eclectic mix of languages? Oh, and I think Transylvania was part of Romania, then, too. I could be wrong; I claim no expertise on the subject; what I know of Dracula is more because it's my friend's hobby than mine ANyway, we could continue this on the Dracula thread if we need to discuss it further. I'm honoured you asked me, though Oh, and thanks for the clarification. Right. le Marechel, I think I may have to retract a statement and rephrase another. It's the actual policy, not the religious organizations, that I have a legitimate problem with. And, if I'm not completely out of it and it hasn't been explained already, could someone explain this invincible ignorance thing for me? I'm not quite sure I understand. It's a way to hold people who have not heard of Christ and God and whatnot not accountable for their lack of knowledge? Does that mean they can be saved without ever hearing the Word?
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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12-25-2003, 05:01 PM | #2280 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Oh, yeah, Romania...I knew that, I really did. I just didn't remember. See title. Thanks.
From A Catholic Dictionary: Ignorance, Invincible. The lack of an element of knowledge, which is not to be ascribed to want of due diligence on the part of the subject. Thus a man educated in Protestant surroundings would probably be invincibly ignorant of the Immaculate Conception. Since such ignorance cannot be dispelled by the use of ordinary diligence, it is in itself free from blame and no bad action done as a result thereof can be a formal sin; the doer not knowing its malice it is involuntary and not imputable to him. Salvation...ii. Outside the Church. "Outside the Church, no salvation." [Gwai-note: also known as "Extra ecclesiam nulla sales", IIRC]. This dogma refers to those who are outsidfe the Church by their own fault. There is a command to enter the Church, which is the prescribed way to Heaven. He who refuses to join the Church which Christ founded, recognizing that Christ commanded adhesion to his Church, is in the way of perdition. (Ri, you're probably closer to salvation than me.) But those who are in invincible ignorance will not be condemned merely on account of their ignorance. "It is to be held as of faith that none can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church...but nevertheless it is equally certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if that ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord." (Pius IX, allocution of Dec. 9, 1854). Those non-Catholics who are saved are in life outside the visible body of the Church, but are joined invisibly to the Church by charity and by that implicit desire of joining the Church which is inseparable from the explicit desire to do God's will."
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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