11-05-2003, 06:06 AM | #2181 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree that the living machine argument can explain the physical reality we can see. But I think there's a self-referential limit there. You can only explain with science what is explicable with science. I suppose what I'm saying is that there are things (possibly illusionary) which may be unknowable, or at least inscrutable, like free will. You know, the ghost in the machine. The easy way out is to point to the divine clockmaker. |
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11-05-2003, 01:34 PM | #2182 | |
Elven Warrior
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--Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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11-05-2003, 01:54 PM | #2183 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-05-2003, 03:17 PM | #2184 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Keep in mind that there have been phenomena through out human history that humans could not explain and so concluded it must be a sign of god or the divine and it can never be explained with science. things like lightening, thunder, the stars, the sun, the seasons, storms, you name it the list is almost endless. Well now we can wind numbers around all those things and we can explain them as quantifiable features of our known universe. There is no more mystery about them anymore. To me a running dog even free will fits in the same way. this isnt to say i dont find joy or shock or wonder in certain things in life but when i feel these ways i know its because of a trillion biophysiologic interactions involving hormones and synapsis and brain chemicals and muscle movements that make up the working mechanisms of this amazing machine we call ourselves.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-05-2003, 04:31 PM | #2185 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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The easy tricky answer would be “no. no more so then god would have a problem with it.” But Ill play along and actually answer one of your rhetorical questions if you like. It has nothing to do with ME it has to do with NATURE. Nature sets the rules. If it benefits the organism to kill a baby (even brutally) then it can happen. Chances are pretty low though considering in our species having a propensity to kill babies can get you in pretty much the most serious trouble imaginable. As in dead. Certainly at least a life of non-breeding. Either way end of genes for unabashed baby mutilating. Now if I witness someone killing a baby sure Im gonna take issue with it. Not because god tells me to but because if you kill a fellow human then you can just as likely kill me or my baby. And the more you allow that then the more baby killers there out there breeding waiting to kill YOU and YOUR baby. And of course being killed or allowing my baby to be killed would mean Im not passing my genes on. So if my genes (and my societal reinforcements) allow for repugnance at the idea of killing a baby then it can be to my benefit to act in this way. Quote:
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That which we find “beautiful” is that way for a REASON. Not just randomly or accidently. The brain circuitry that allows us to define what is beautiful has developed that way because recognizing those things as beautiful are beneficial to us and/or to our genes. That’s all. Enjoy the world. But realize your enjoyment OF it is defined by your development IN it.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2003, 04:18 PM | #2186 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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Since we were told to shut up in the gay thread. Im jumping here with this…
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By the way some Christians say they DO have evidence of god. Voices. Signs. Things like this. Where is Lief lately? Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2003, 10:21 PM | #2187 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
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Please forgive me for jumping in... I would say that what is meant by “blind faith” is a faith that is not thought out, or does not take into account everyday human experience. Faith, however, takes into account our everyday experiences, to include what we can know scientifically about the world around us. In fact, it depends on a dialogue between sense perception, council or advice from others such as teachers or experts, and reason in the form of induction and deduction. A belief that does not stand up under the pressure of reasoned investigation would be blind.
--Dave
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-02-2003, 12:49 AM | #2188 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for jumping in, Dave - I like that answer - I'll go with that
Blind faith is basically choosing to think something is true without having thought it through. I do NOT have blind faith that Christianity is true. I have a belief, or faith, based on thought and reasoned evaluation of the available evidence, that Christianity is true. The Bible itself calls on us to be able to give REASONS for our faith. It does NOT call us to have an unthinking faith, at least anywhere that I've seen in the last 30 years of study I think the whole "blind faith" thing was a fad that blew things all out of proportion. A small amount of doubt is, I think, a reasonable and healthy thing to have. The whole "blind faith" movement basically said "if a little is good, a lot is better!" and foolishly made the conclusion that saying you believe something without thinking it through was a VIRTUE. Nowhere do I see this supposed "virtue" in the Bible. What I do see, though, is the idea that if someone has proved themselves trustworthy over and over, including God, then it is a REASONABLE faith to trust His word in some areas that you may not completely understand. But that's only IF your reason has supported the vast amount of your beliefs first, IMO. Altho I can't know my husband loves me in a scientific sense (see below before you comment on this), given the available evidence, it is a REASONABLE belief for me to have that he does love me; in fact, it would be irrational to think otherwise. So yes, there is a small area of doubt, but it is RATIONAL for me to hold the belief that he loves me. And in the same way, I think that altho there is a small amount of doubt about the existence of God, that given the evidence that I've seen, it's RATIONAL to conclude that he exists, esp. because the alternatives are very IRRATIONAL compared to what I've seen.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-02-2003, 01:08 AM | #2189 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Now I can't speak for Graymouser, but for me, because Christianity requires ACTION, then IF I believe that the evidence is strong enough to support Christianity, I therefore need to CHOOSE to either ignore the evidence and stay in a state of limbo (This might be true, but it might be false; and THIS might be true but it might be false, etc.), or ACT on my evaluation of the evidence and CHOOSE to live the Christian lifestyle. Quote:
Why do we have to "understand the mind of god" to know if he exists? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-02-2003, 11:54 AM | #2190 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
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Now, you may have a different definition of God than is commonly used-some people define God as all that is, or Universal Spiritual Feeling, or the Tao- tell me what you mean, and I'll give you my opinion. If you're saying that there might be Something that some people at some time might call God- well, Ok, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for something a little more specific. I stopped calling myself an agnostic based on the Big Purple Monster test. Is there a Big Purple Monster hiding in your closet? How do you know? An agnostic on the issue of BPMs would say "I don't know, let me go check." Me , being an a-BPMist, would say "There has been no credible evidence presented of a BPM in my closet, therefore considering the unlikeliness of the explanation for the evidence- noises,creaking etc. - and the greater likelihood of alternate explanations, I say that I don't believe in the BPM." I go to the closet and AAAAaaaaHHH!!. I'm not saying that it's impossible that there is a BPM in the closet- or aliens on the Dark Side of the Moon, or anything else you care to believe in- just bring out the evidence and let's judge.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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12-02-2003, 01:43 PM | #2191 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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i'm an ecclectic athiest... i don't believe there is a god, but i think many good things have been written in his name... buddhist teachings being some of my favorite
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12-02-2003, 02:04 PM | #2192 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I like some things about Buddhism, too, but the thing I don't like, and I find to be contrary to what we find in life, is the lack of a strong good. The whole idea of the 4 Noble Truths seems to be to escape suffering by eliminating/suppressing craving (truth #3). But what gets thrown out with the bad is the good - IOW, it is GOOD to desire right things in a right way (i.e., not a way that is harmful to others), whether for yourself or for others, and to desire them strongly.
One of the things I love in Tolkien's writing is the strong element of positive good. That's also one of the things I love in Christianity. Tolkien's heros are not wimpy or passive, even the ones that the world would call "insignificant", like Frodo. Christianity is not wimpy or passive, either. It is strongly good, and offers strong joy and love, and that's why it's strongly against evil. I just don't see this element in Buddhism, and frankly have no desire for nirvana, if it is just a place where there is no suffering, but also no joy. From what I can tell, Buddha himself never described nirvana, either - he just described how to avoid suffering in this life. But I think Buddha was right in much of his ethical teaching and the idea that selfish desire causes suffering. But all that is right in Buddhism is also contained in Christianity, IMO, along with the element of strong good and joy.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-02-2003, 02:15 PM | #2193 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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For example, some thoughts from reading your sig:
"The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind. " This seems to me to be only self-centered. Contrast with Christianity's strong love of loving your neighbor as yourself, considering others as more important than yourself (in a proper way - i.e., you are not trash or anything like that, but it is good to sometimes even deny yourself somewhat in order to give to another), and things like that. Peace is a RESULT of loving and obeying God, tho. "The greatest effort is not concerned with results. " Christianity is very results-oriented, but also very heart-oriented. One goal is to help the poor - well, if you want to, but don't make the effort to do it, then the result is that you DON'T help the poor. You need to love the poor and care about their distress enough to make the result happen. But the wrong heart attitude of helping the poor only so other people think you're good is SEVERELY spoken against in Scripture. "The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go. " But I thought you valued reason, jenkins! I don't mean to pick on you at all - just wanted to share some thoughts. Buddhist thought IS extremely appealing in this painful world - there's something very soothing about it - but upon reflection, it seems to lack the necessary strength to deal with reality, and lacks the joy that Christianity has in abundance. Only MHO, tho
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-02-2003, 02:32 PM | #2194 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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i agree in part... which is why i am not a Buddhist... i like their worldview and general openess though... one of the world's more tolerant religions... also the idea that true happiness comes from within, as opposed to some external force
but a result of tolerance can often be oppression, and i'm much to strong-willed to actually embrace all the buddhist ideals for me joy comes from my friends, my family, my passions... ultimately the whole god thing is somewhat irrelavant, i enjoy debating about it, but it's just philosophy for me... day to day i try to judge everyone and everything at face value ~ and keep an open enough mind to realize that my initial reactions may be wrong |
12-02-2003, 03:00 PM | #2195 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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to bring it back to tolkien, i always saw some buddhist traits on Tom Bombadil... he was perfectly at peace with himself and his surroundings... he needed nothing outside his simple existance, even the great ring of power... he loved to help, yet did not feel a need to help... it was simply second nature... he did not even hate his enemies, if you can even call them that... and it would be hard to argue that he was not happy or full of passion Quote:
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12-02-2003, 04:37 PM | #2196 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-02-2003, 05:25 PM | #2197 | |||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
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but anyway what if I invent something next week that allows you to detect the presence of your big purple monster. It was just unobservable all this time because we couldn’t SEE it. But perhaps certain people had an innate ability to SENSE it somehow without being sure exactly how or what it was and so it entered into our cultural lexicon as a “big purple monster” which was in fact an anthropomorphism of what it truly was (which was more complex and perhaps not totally comprehendible for us) because that’s what we humans do to things we don’t quite understand. We stick a human like (or at least an animal like) face on it so it makes sense to our brain. Its human nature. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-03-2003, 04:14 AM | #2198 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
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"Just because fungus cant comprehend our thoughts doesn’t mean we don’t exist."
Great quote. Lief's been emailing me pretty regularly, but I haven't seen him on the Moot.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-03-2003, 04:34 AM | #2199 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Hello.
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12-03-2003, 05:18 AM | #2200 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Very amusing. This is the first day in weeks probably that I've been to General Messages, and I just happen to come right on cue.
It's very late, so I don't have time to tackle this thread again at this moment. At a later date I'll probably rejoin . Perhaps coming back with both cannons blazing (bringing that information I promised on the unlikeliness of the creation of life) . Insidious Rex, it's good to see you here! Won't bore you at the moment with more tales of spiritual contact, never fear. I'll ask though, what reasons do you have for believing God is the way you describe him to be? By the way, has anyone answered all the statements about God and Christianity that follow all of your posts, yet? (Makes a note of the page number) Hi R*an! I actually have been back in Entmoot for about four days in a row, now. I've been focused primarily in the RPG Forum and the Writing Forum until tonight. The debates here tend to go very deep, so I have been being cautious about getting deep into one. I might return to General Messages off and on, but I'm still primarily focused on writing right now. Quote:
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