Theology IV - Page 11

ElizabethAnnRoger · 09-26-2008, 10:02 PM

I believe that the Roman Catholic church is the true religion and the best way to get to eternal bliss. Its not the only way, but the best way.

Curufin · 09-26-2008, 10:53 PM

Sane, I was raised a 'liberal quaker' - PM me if you really want to know more.

katya · 09-26-2008, 10:54 PM

I considered myself a Quaker for a brief period. In between Catholicism and agnosticism.

Curufin · 09-26-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElizabethAnnRoger

I believe that the Roman Catholic church is the true religion and the best way to get to eternal bliss. Its not the only way, but the best way.

For you.

inked · 09-26-2008, 11:14 PM

SHOCKINGLY ......

1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (99%)
2. Eastern Orthodox (100%)
3. Roman Catholic (100%)
4. Seventh Day Adventist (90%)
5. Orthodox Quaker (85%)

Who'd a thunk it?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

katya · 09-26-2008, 11:54 PM

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (86%)
3. New Age (84%)
4. Mahayana Buddhism (76%)
5. Liberal Quakers (74%)

Hinduism was #6, I identify with many aspects of Hindu religion. My whole belief system is so... vague though.

I will actually read this thread later and give my opinions later, by the way.

Gwaimir Windgem · 09-29-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

SHOCKINGLY ......

1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (99%)
2. Eastern Orthodox (100%)
3. Roman Catholic (100%)
4. Seventh Day Adventist (90%)
5. Orthodox Quaker (85%)

Who'd a thunk it?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More RC than Protestant? I'm surprised by that!

Insidious Rex · 09-29-2008, 03:44 PM

Why is 99% greater than 100%?

inked · 09-29-2008, 05:18 PM

IR, I wondered the same thing! I suspect since the RC and Orthodox tied at 100% the system was gamed to tie-break in some odd fashion!

GW, way more Catholic (Orthodox and RC) than Protestant!

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-01-2008, 12:53 AM

Oh, yes?

Then where did these come from...

"HOLY Scriptures containeth all things necessary to salvation:"

"Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine"

Coulda sworn it was the Articles of Religion...

inked · 10-01-2008, 09:17 AM

GW,
You are such a kidder!

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church as follows:

1) paragraphs 105 -108, 124, 143 faith

2) paragraphs 1987 - 1995 justification

3) paragraphs 65, 144-184, 1102 salvation

But, your quotation citation is correct!

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-01-2008, 05:37 PM

Uh-oh, an Anglican quoting the CCC chapter and verse...you're not one of those silly Anglo-Papalists, are you?

inked · 10-01-2008, 06:20 PM

What, me, an Anglo-Papalist? Heaven forfend!

Actually, I am an Anglo-Catholic. That means I have a very high view of Scripture, the Sacraments, and the Church Catholic based on the reformation of the church in England but adhering to:
ONE Bible,
TWO Testaments,
THREE Creeds,
FOUR Councils, and
FIVE Centuries.

So you can see why I confused the test, I'm so Catholic it couldn't tell it I was Roman (100%) or Orthodox (100%).

Somehow though it figured I was Protestant, which originally meant protesting on behalf of the Bible and against the excesses of the church in the West.

Hence your "HOLY Scriptures containeth all things necessary to salvation:" and "Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine".

katya · 10-02-2008, 09:32 AM

Question from World Religions class to all Catholics and others who use the Nicaean Creed (AKA Apostles Creed). What do you think of it? Do you believe it? Do you know it by heart/say it at mass?

inked · 10-02-2008, 11:24 AM

katya,

The APOSTLE'S Creed derives from the baptismal personal statement of faith and is variantly noted from pre-100 AD in Scripture (not fully developed, of course) through its final and current form in the 400's AD.

You may research it here: http://www.creeds.net/ under these subheadings

# Creeds in the Bible
# Ireneaus Rule of Faith
# Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service
# The Apostle's Creed

* Notes

The NICENE CREED was initiated at Nicea in 325 AD and completed at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD - without the "filioque" clause that was added by the West later and in a non-conciliar fashion. This is a touchy issue between Eastern and Western Churches today, though most note it was largely a misunderstanding between approaches and modes of thought common to the cultures involved (with the Great Schism not resulting until 1045 with the usual political and culutral overtones and undercurrents).

You may research it here: http://www.creeds.net/ in the entries for

1) The Creed of Nicaea as approved by the Nicene Council (A.D. 325)
2) The Nicene Creed as approved by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381)
-- The Nicene Creed -- Constantinopolitan Creed -- Creed of 150 Fathers

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

The Apostle's Creed is the BAPTISMAL creed and the affirmation of personal faith. In the Anglican usage it is said at Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer daily and at baptisms (the Nicene Creed is omitted from the Eucharist when this occurs at baptism in the usage of the Episcopal Church 1979 Prayer Book because the entire congregation re-affirms their Baptismal Covenant in this liturgy).

The Nicene Creed is the EUCHARISTIC creed and the affirmation of personal and corporate faith. The gathered bishops at Nicaea and Constaninople affirmed the "WE BELIEVE..." as an expression of corporate faith and teaching and this is the "faith of the Church" but the "I BELIEVE ..." form is the standard Orthodox eucharistic creed, was the standard form in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, is an option in the 1979 Prayer Book Rite I Eucharist (ECUSA), and also the Roman Rite.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But the affirmation of "I believe..." is a pledge that the individual adheres to, trusts in, relies on the faith of the Body of Christ Militant expressed as "We believe...". So the baptismal and eucharistic creeds are symbols of THE FAITH which the CHURCH individually and corporately adheres to, trusts in, and relies on ( the person and the Church faiths these things about God, Jesus, the Spirit and the nature of reality "visible and invisible" or natural and supranatural).

You could check out the Catechism of the (Roman) Catholic Church for a discussion of these aspects in paragraphs 185 forward. You could also find links to official websites of Orthodox Churches to guide you in their understanding as well.

Now, I think...
1) that perfomative intent is necessary to say the Creeds properly (you might not understand totally but you must mean that you intend to faith this and live this belief);
2) the Creeds are true literally, figuratively, metaphorically, and anagogically (they record history, are understood in meaning and application and spiritually ALL at the same time and not merely pious sentiments);
3) I pretty much know them by heart but I prefer to attentively read the words as I say them and hear them said by the assembly and stand in the heavenlies "where with angels and archangels and all the host of heaven we laud and magnify the Blessed Trinity" by confessing and blessing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and,
4) I say them in word and deed because (to quote a contemporary Christian sung variant -) "I did not make them, they are making me" into what God intends me to become.

Enough? Too much? More?

Empress_Flynn · 10-02-2008, 12:04 PM

I'm gonna go with "Jedi"

Okay, so that's probably not true... but I'm not entirely sure what I believe. I don't really like organized religion as such, I believe in evolution and I believe the Earth is older the the Bible claims... so... yeah...

According to the quiz my top five are:

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (98%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (96%)
4. New Age (95%)
5. Liberal Quakers (85%)

That being said... I don't practice anything... I just kind of observe and live my life the best I can...

katya · 10-02-2008, 01:54 PM

goodness, empress, you got all the same as me!

Thanks for the reply, Inked. I was raised catholic myself so I have a good understanding of the creed. I'm more interested in your personal opinion. That said, I will reply more fully when I am not on my iPhone.

Empress_Flynn · 10-02-2008, 02:04 PM

Hehe... yes, we seem to have those kinds of similarities, Katya

*covets Katya's iPhone*

It would just go so well with my MacBook!

I was raised Presbyterian and I went to church some when I was younger... I really liked the church atmosphere, but I never had an active belief in god or biblical teachings...

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-02-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

What, me, an Anglo-Papalist? Heaven forfend!

Actually, I am an Anglo-Catholic. That means I have a very high view of Scripture, the Sacraments, and the Church Catholic based on the reformation of the church in England but adhering to:
ONE Bible,
TWO Testaments,
THREE Creeds,
FOUR Councils, and
FIVE Centuries.

I've heard this Anglo-Catholic formulation before. Why exactly do you stop after five centuries? I never understood that.

Quote:

Somehow though it figured I was Protestant, which originally meant protesting on behalf of the Bible and against the excesses of the church in the West.

Presuming that the Bible is convertible with Martin Luther, of course.

But seriously, most of the protested excesses in the West were rampant in the East as well, weren't they? The only one that comes to mind that wasn't is indulgences.

Empress_Flynn · 10-02-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

But seriously, most of the protested excesses in the West were rampant in the East as well, weren't they? The only one that comes to mind that wasn't is indulgences.

Well, if you think of it like this.... a lot of the protestations over sin and excesses within the Catholic Church that led to the Reformation were either monetary (so, yes, indulgences was a big part of that) or corrupt Catholic Church officials... namely ones that weren't following the whole chastity thing. Bishops, Cardinals, and even Popes were having illegitimate kids left and right (and typically seeing to their futures through good old nespotism)

So, simple way to solve that... no more vows of chastity for the members of the church!

That was the idea anyway...

09-26-2008, 10:02 PM	#201
ElizabethAnnRoger Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Along side the Emperor of France. Posts: 110	I believe that the Roman Catholic church is the true religion and the best way to get to eternal bliss. Its not the only way, but the best way. __________________ ...Ambition never is in a greater hurry that I; it merely keeps pace with circumstances and with my general way of thinking... Vive l'Empereur! Now and for always... Elizabeth Ann Roger

09-26-2008, 10:53 PM	#202
Curufin The Ñoldóran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Mishawaka, IN Posts: 2,050	Sane, I was raised a 'liberal quaker' - PM me if you really want to know more. __________________ Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian

09-26-2008, 11:14 PM	#205
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	SHOCKINGLY ...... 1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (99%) 2. Eastern Orthodox (100%) 3. Roman Catholic (100%) 4. Seventh Day Adventist (90%) 5. Orthodox Quaker (85%) Who'd a thunk it?!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

09-29-2008, 03:44 PM	#208
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Why is 99% greater than 100%? __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

09-29-2008, 05:18 PM	#209
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	IR, I wondered the same thing! I suspect since the RC and Orthodox tied at 100% the system was gamed to tie-break in some odd fashion! GW, way more Catholic (Orthodox and RC) than Protestant! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

09-26-2008, 10:54 PM	#203
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	I considered myself a Quaker for a brief period. In between Catholicism and agnosticism.

09-26-2008, 11:54 PM	#206
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	1. Neo-Pagan (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (86%) 3. New Age (84%) 4. Mahayana Buddhism (76%) 5. Liberal Quakers (74%) Hinduism was #6, I identify with many aspects of Hindu religion. My whole belief system is so... vague though. I will actually read this thread later and give my opinions later, by the way.

10-01-2008, 12:53 AM	#210
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Oh, yes? Then where did these come from... "HOLY Scriptures containeth all things necessary to salvation:" "Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine" Coulda sworn it was the Articles of Religion... __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

10-01-2008, 09:17 AM	#211
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	GW, You are such a kidder! See the Catechism of the Catholic Church as follows: 1) paragraphs 105 -108, 124, 143 faith 2) paragraphs 1987 - 1995 justification 3) paragraphs 65, 144-184, 1102 salvation But, your quotation citation is correct! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-01-2008, 05:37 PM	#212
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Uh-oh, an Anglican quoting the CCC chapter and verse...you're not one of those silly Anglo-Papalists, are you? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

10-01-2008, 06:20 PM	#213
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	What, me, an Anglo-Papalist? Heaven forfend! Actually, I am an Anglo-Catholic. That means I have a very high view of Scripture, the Sacraments, and the Church Catholic based on the reformation of the church in England but adhering to: ONE Bible, TWO Testaments, THREE Creeds, FOUR Councils, and FIVE Centuries. So you can see why I confused the test, I'm so Catholic it couldn't tell it I was Roman (100%) or Orthodox (100%). Somehow though it figured I was Protestant, which originally meant protesting on behalf of the Bible and against the excesses of the church in the West. Hence your "HOLY Scriptures containeth all things necessary to salvation:" and "Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine". __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-02-2008, 09:32 AM	#214
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	Question from World Religions class to all Catholics and others who use the Nicaean Creed (AKA Apostles Creed). What do you think of it? Do you believe it? Do you know it by heart/say it at mass?

10-02-2008, 11:24 AM	#215
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	katya, The APOSTLE'S Creed derives from the baptismal personal statement of faith and is variantly noted from pre-100 AD in Scripture (not fully developed, of course) through its final and current form in the 400's AD. You may research it here: http://www.creeds.net/ under these subheadings # Creeds in the Bible # Ireneaus Rule of Faith # Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service # The Apostle's Creed * Notes The NICENE CREED was initiated at Nicea in 325 AD and completed at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD - without the "filioque" clause that was added by the West later and in a non-conciliar fashion. This is a touchy issue between Eastern and Western Churches today, though most note it was largely a misunderstanding between approaches and modes of thought common to the cultures involved (with the Great Schism not resulting until 1045 with the usual political and culutral overtones and undercurrents). You may research it here: http://www.creeds.net/ in the entries for 1) The Creed of Nicaea as approved by the Nicene Council (A.D. 325) 2) The Nicene Creed as approved by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381) -- The Nicene Creed -- Constantinopolitan Creed -- Creed of 150 Fathers ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++ The Apostle's Creed is the BAPTISMAL creed and the affirmation of personal faith. In the Anglican usage it is said at Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer daily and at baptisms (the Nicene Creed is omitted from the Eucharist when this occurs at baptism in the usage of the Episcopal Church 1979 Prayer Book because the entire congregation re-affirms their Baptismal Covenant in this liturgy). The Nicene Creed is the EUCHARISTIC creed and the affirmation of personal and corporate faith. The gathered bishops at Nicaea and Constaninople affirmed the "WE BELIEVE..." as an expression of corporate faith and teaching and this is the "faith of the Church" but the "I BELIEVE ..." form is the standard Orthodox eucharistic creed, was the standard form in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, is an option in the 1979 Prayer Book Rite I Eucharist (ECUSA), and also the Roman Rite. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ But the affirmation of "I believe..." is a pledge that the individual adheres to, trusts in, relies on the faith of the Body of Christ Militant expressed as "We believe...". So the baptismal and eucharistic creeds are symbols of THE FAITH which the CHURCH individually and corporately adheres to, trusts in, and relies on ( the person and the Church faiths these things about God, Jesus, the Spirit and the nature of reality "visible and invisible" or natural and supranatural). You could check out the Catechism of the (Roman) Catholic Church for a discussion of these aspects in paragraphs 185 forward. You could also find links to official websites of Orthodox Churches to guide you in their understanding as well. Now, I think... 1) that perfomative intent is necessary to say the Creeds properly (you might not understand totally but you must mean that you intend to faith this and live this belief); 2) the Creeds are true literally, figuratively, metaphorically, and anagogically (they record history, are understood in meaning and application and spiritually ALL at the same time and not merely pious sentiments); 3) I pretty much know them by heart but I prefer to attentively read the words as I say them and hear them said by the assembly and stand in the heavenlies "where with angels and archangels and all the host of heaven we laud and magnify the Blessed Trinity" by confessing and blessing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and, 4) I say them in word and deed because (to quote a contemporary Christian sung variant -) "I did not make them, they are making me" into what God intends me to become. Enough? Too much? More? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-02-2008 at 11:28 AM. Reason: punctuation issues

10-02-2008, 12:04 PM	#216
Empress_Flynn Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Everywhere and nowhere Posts: 814	I'm gonna go with "Jedi" Okay, so that's probably not true... but I'm not entirely sure what I believe. I don't really like organized religion as such, I believe in evolution and I believe the Earth is older the the Bible claims... so... yeah... According to the quiz my top five are: 1. Neo-Pagan (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (98%) 3. Mahayana Buddhism (96%) 4. New Age (95%) 5. Liberal Quakers (85%) That being said... I don't practice anything... I just kind of observe and live my life the best I can... __________________ "Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind."

10-02-2008, 01:54 PM	#217
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	goodness, empress, you got all the same as me! Thanks for the reply, Inked. I was raised catholic myself so I have a good understanding of the creed. I'm more interested in your personal opinion. That said, I will reply more fully when I am not on my iPhone.

10-02-2008, 02:04 PM	#218
Empress_Flynn Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Everywhere and nowhere Posts: 814	Hehe... yes, we seem to have those kinds of similarities, Katya covets Katya's iPhone It would just go so well with my MacBook! I was raised Presbyterian and I went to church some when I was younger... I really liked the church atmosphere, but I never had an active belief in god or biblical teachings... __________________ "Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind."

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