Abortion.

[Lotesse]

What if you've been raped? And you would like to abort within the first trimester? You guys all seem so glib about "Oh, abortion is murder no matter what, la-de-da" - well, what if you were raped!! What then?

[Tree Dweller]

Personally I don't think the most innocent victim of all should be punished in this situation. If the mother does not really think she could handle it, then she should consider adoption.


I know that if I was raped, I would have the child. Period.

[Lotesse]

Really? And the mother herself wasn't an innocent victim? The mother should have to "pay" for the crime of getting raped? And what's this "mother" term for anyway, who's mother? Noones a mother until and unless a child is BORN.

Oh - Tree Dweller - have you even ever BEEN raped? How can you know, if it hasn't happened to you? What if the most grisly, disgusting person you could imagine, or SEVERAL of them, gang-raped you - here's some more, what if they weren't your race, to boot? Think of the worst people in the world, then imagine them being your "baby's" spawn?

[Tree Dweller]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And what's this "mother" term for anyway, who's mother? Noones a mother until and unless a child is BORN.

I would have to disagree with that.
I have been pregnant 3 times.
The first time I had an abortion.
The second time I almost had an abortion.
The third time I did not even consider it.

I felt like a mother each time I was carrying those children.
There is no real difference in carrying them inside you or outside.


And I am in no way saying that the mother was not innnocent, but how is "getting rid of" the child the just solution?

And of course this will lead back to....when does life begin. Which is really where all abortion arguments are based.

[brownjenkins]

the point is that TD is allowed to make her own decision... and you yours... a good thing when it comes to issues this close to the heart

[Jonathan]

I dare say being pregnant with your rapist's child would be unbearable. The little thing growing inside you would be a constant reminder of the horrible crime you've been subjected to, no matter the innosence of the fetus itself. And if you kept the baby, there's the risk that whenever you looked into your child's eyes, you'd see the rapist staring back at you. As I see it, abortion should definitely be considered the lesser of the two evils. But of course it's up to the mother.

Besides, bringing an unloved child into the world is a crime in itself.

[Tree Dweller]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh - Tree Dweller - have you even ever BEEN raped? How can you know, if it hasn't happened to you? What if the most grisly, disgusting person you could imagine, or SEVERAL of them, gang-raped you - here's some more, what if they weren't your race, to boot? Think of the worst people in the world, then imagine them being your "baby's" spawn?

I would have to say, yes I have....though this would be the first time I have ever admitted it.

My husband happens to be black, so the race issue make zero difference to me.

That child is still completely innocent. Who says they cannot have a happy and fulfilling life despite their circumstances?

[Snowdog]

Against my better judgement, I'm going to post in here...

Under certain circumstances, abortion is indeed murder. To use abortion as a way of ridding oneself of a child after careless sex. It is murder.

And less government intervention is best. To prevent a woman from getting a safe and reliable abortion after conceiving a child from a violent attack is not right, for who can make that judgement except the woman attacked?

[Tree Dweller]

Snowdog, explain to me how it is murder under some circumstances and not others???

*just trying to understand your point of view*

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i prefer choice to the government forcing us to do anything in this realm of our lives

Ha ha! Where is the karma button when you really need it...

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

the point is that TD is allowed to make her own decision... and you yours... a good thing when it comes to issues this close to the heart

Word!! That is why I am glad abortion is legal in the U.S.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Tree Dweller

I would have to say, yes I have....though this would be the first time I have ever admitted it.

My husband happens to be black, so the race issue make zero difference to me.

That child is still completely innocent. Who says they cannot have a happy and fulfilling life despite their circumstances?

Yes, they absolutely could. If that child were born, and his/her mother were able to completely eradicate within herself all possible hatred, rsentment, anger, etcetera ad nauseum and actually love her rape-outcome child without ever, ever feeling those horrible things again every time she looked at the face of said child.... ho-boy. This is the first time I've ever stepped into an intense debate thread, let the games begin here we go. *straps self into roller-coaster chair, crosses self*

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I dare say being pregnant with your rapist's child would be unbearable. The little thing growing inside you would be a constant reminder of the horrible crime you've been subjected to, no matter the innosence of the fetus itself. And if you kept the baby, there's the risk that whenever you looked into your child's eyes, you'd see the rapist staring back at you. As I see it, abortion should definitely be considered the lesser of the two evils. But of course it's up to the mother.

Besides, bringing an unloved child into the world is a crime in itself.

That was very well said, Jonathan; I missed that post before but that's exactly what I was tryna say.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Besides, bringing an unloved child into the world is a crime in itself.

a very important point... i've always thought that if a lot more attention was paid to the human condition in our country... things like free birth control, free child care, and maybe even an effective way to step in and take a child away from parents unfit to play the role... and then put that child in a place that is truely a good nurturing environment (as opposed to today's orphanages)... many many less people would choose the abortion choice, or even get pregnant in the first place

there is way to much attention on the principle of murder and way to little on the real-life situations so many people have to face, even in a first world country like the united states

people say that choosing abortion is an easy way out... why not make having the child just as easy a way out if out is what the mother wants? we can't make someone love their offspring, but we can take up the role

[Arien the Maia]

yes, I admit, being pregnant with a child you never wanted as a result of being raped would be terrifying. now, I have never been raped (thank God) but I could still never bring myself to "rid" myself of it. I would certainly give it up for adoption....that child could do something great for the world someday...well that's my opinion anyways.

[Tree Dweller]

The only reason I take the debate in that direction is because I always hear..."How can you bring a child into this world in this circumstance.......they will have a horrible life......etc...".

My point being, how does any one of us know what that childs life will be like? He/she could be born in a completely loving, healthy enviroment and end up depressed, miserable, or suicidal. He/she could be born into an unloving, hostile home and overcome those things to be a happy prosperous person.

I am not saying that it is good for just anyone to have a child.
But consider this....

A 19 year old girl gets pregnant by her boyfriend of 3 months. She is still living at home with her parents, working at a fast food restaraunt. The boyfriend works at a gas station, never finished high school, and has no intentions of marrying this young woman. Not to mention the young woman has not even told her parents about the boyfriend, because of their threats to disown her for dating someone outside of her own race. She and the boyfriend both drink frequently and are in no way responsible.

Is this and ideal situation for a child to born into? No

But I was that 19 year old.
We got married and now lead a very conservative lifestyle (I stay at home with both of our children) and my husband has started his own business. We also just bought our first home.

I just don't think you can judge a child's entire life by the situation in which they were concieved.


And as far as mothers dealing with something such as rape, I think women are stronger than most people believe. And when the motherly instincts kick in, nothing can shut them down. You love your child. period.


*sorry if that seemed like I was rambling on*

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Tree Dweller

Snowdog, explain to me how it is murder under some circumstances and not others???

*just trying to understand your point of view*

Herre we go...

Hypothetical Case #1: A woman walking to her car after work. in the parking garage, three men grab her and force her into their car. She struggles but one injects some drug into her. She is taken somewhere where she is raped one guy after another, maybe as a party favor for the weekend. She is kept drugged and immobilized until they are done with her, when she is taken and dumped somewhere. This would be trauma enoughj, but she don't make any sort of police report because she don't remember any details. She tries to deal with it the best she could, but finds out weeks later she is pregnant. She decided to have the child aborted. The woman is in no way responsible for the conditions that caused the conception of this child, so I don't see this abortion as murder.

Hypothetical Case #2: A woman heads to a bar after work. She enjoys drinking and having drinks bought for her all night, becoming quite drunk. She ends up going to a party with some of these men, and she has sex freely with each and every one of them. The next day she wakes up sprawled out on a strangers bed with strange men around and atop of her. She giggles and maybe has sex again, and eventually finds her way home. Weeks later she finds out she is pregnant, and goes and haves an abortion. The woman's behaviour may have been irresponsible, but she is still responsible for the conditions that led to the conception of this child. So to me this abortion would be murder.

[Tree Dweller]

I still don't understand how the taking of the child's life is ok in one situation and not the other???

[Spock]

...I'm with Lotesse on this one.

[Snowdog]

Forget it Tree Dweller. If the obviousness... never mind.

*exits thread*