marriage

[Nurvingiel]

Well, to each his own. Cooking is very personal.

It was in theology, but no worries on the time.

I think the whole idea of housewives and househusbands is completely applicable in today's society, though much less common since households usually need two incomes to function.
Personally I find househusband is a wierd word, even though the idea of it isn't strange at all to me. Hopefully future generations won't find that word to be odd.
The whole 50s housewife though, only applies to the 50s.

EDIT: Do people really want to eat as soon as they get home from work? Personally I like later dinners. It does make sense that whoever wasn't at work all day (or who worked less hours, or whose turn it is) cooks though.

[katya]

I replied a second ago and it didn't work *sniff* but anyway, I'm glad everyone's here! I love you all! *hugs*

An apron is something I shoud wear, but I don't. It's just too dorky, I guess. But yet I wear lab coats in science classes... (but those goggles...) Man I want to cook now! (that, or take chemistry)

What else did I say? Oh yeah...out of anything but love... If my husband was a man who I felt I had to cook for out of fear, next time he complained man, kapow! To the moon! I'm not putting up with anything less than I deserve and I'm sad so many women do.

[Nurvingiel]

I'm with you Katya! I think one of the worst culprits of ongoing women's issues in developped countries is women endoctrinating their daughters with stupid ideas. (See Wasting Away by Marya Hornbacher for this and many serious issues.)

[katya]

Nurvi, I like to eat all the time! I always eat right after I get home from school (except today, and I'm starving!). But, not all people are the same. If *** wants dinner at midnight, then I'd probably cook it for midnight. I loooove staying up late. But not if I had to get up early. See? I'm not a slave- if I want to go to bed at 8 I can just say "make your own damn dinner or else heat it up, you punk!" Aw, I love eating Fritos late at night.... reminds me of my dad...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by katya

I was just saying, er, thinking, about something I read from an old old magazine about how to be a "good wife" and it included things like "your husband will probably be tired from a long day at work, so you should have a nice hot meal ready for him," and things like that. The book itself (that the article was quoted in) then went on to say that that was the most sexist disrespectful thing ever, etc. etc.

I do think that's pretty sexist. For one thing - what happens if you wish to work? Second - taking care of kids all day can be a hard job too. A marriage is about give and take and it seems like the marriage Nurv's parents have is very much like the environment I grew up in. We did everything together and made decisions as a family. My father cooked quite a bit also - but not usually on days he worked. But when my mother worked - I would come home from school and have dinner ready.

Now, I'm not saying that stereotypes and perfect little molds of what a good family is (hey, mine sure doesn't fit, but it's ok by me) are that great. However, what motivates me is a desire to make people happy. Is there anything wrong with having a hot meal ready for my future husband when he comes home? Or doing the dishes every night (which I do, by the way) and keeping the house clean? Or being considerate of his feelings, for that matter, which is pretty basic no matter who you're talking about? I'm not saying that everyone should have the same family structure, but it might not be bad for some people to go with the traditional model.

Why don;'t you do the dishes TOGETHER? Or will he betaking care of the kids, giving them baths and stuff? I know you say down below you don't want kids - but things change and chances are this is something that will change for you.

I think the bottom line is this guy, who I've known for years and I really like, I like the idea of being a person who could make him happy. Or whoever my husband turns out to be, if I even have one. If you love someone, (friend, family, whatever) you want to make them happy, right? I don't want to be submissive. I respect myself a lot too. I'm not comprimising my own values or anything, but I care about the people I love and so it makes me happy when they're happy.

Of course you want him to be happy - but there is also your happiness too. Submissiveness of a wife IS NOT something that would make me happy. And having a wife that cooked and cleaned and stuff like you have described - would not make me happy. A marriage is about a relationship and communication

Have I made any sense at all? I probably sound like a retard because I'm still just a kid. *sigh*

You dont' sound like a retard or stupid or anything - just remember that your outlook and dreams can change too.

[Nurvingiel]

Okay, this sounds sexist: "your husband will probably be tired from a long day at work, so you should have a nice hot meal ready for him." But it's so disconnected from anything applicable to today's society IMO! However, I also think it's hilarious. I get a good chuckle out of statements like these.

It reminds me of this hilarious quote in my cookbook... "Every woman wants to make that perfect 'melt-in-your-mouth' pastry that the family can brag about." I chuckle every single time I read that. It's awesome. Like a mullet. Or a velvet painting.

I see nothing wrong with cooking a lot or doing the cleaning, but I just think there's no excuse for the husband not to help as the family's schedule allows.

My mom did most of the cooking, but my dad cooked fairly often, usually on the weekends. I really want some of my parent's cooking now. They are, in every way, a team. Like, my mom is the expert at making salads and barbequeing, and my dad is the expert at cooking East Indian food and bread (back in the day - he hasn't made bread in ages. But he's still the expert). I'm suddenly a bit homesick. Okay, that's it, time for bed.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Okay, this sounds sexist: "your husband will probably be tired from a long day at work, so you should have a nice hot meal ready for him." But it's so disconnected from anything applicable to today's society IMO! However, I also think it's hilarious. I get a good chuckle out of statements like these.

You know what's really funny - watch some old tv shows and commercials. Talk about sexist.

One thing that bothers me with today's commercials is now it's okay to make husbands look like complete morons who can't do anything. There is the Grand Turismo 4/Toys R Us commercial and the mother comes home with the game and yells upstairs that she got the game for them. Two kids then come running around the corner and start down the stairs - then the father comes around the corner and jumps over the banister and smashes the table and runs to the package the mother is holding. He grabs it out of her hand like a little kid. There are many commercials like that today where the father is looked at as an idiot - while the mother is the mature parent.

[katya]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I do think that's pretty sexist. For one thing - what happens if you wish to work? Second - taking care of kids all day can be a hard job too. A marriage is about give and take and it seems like the marriage Nurv's parents have is very much like the environment I grew up in. We did everything together and made decisions as a family. My father cooked quite a bit also - but not usually on days he worked. But when my mother worked - I would come home from school and have dinner ready.

Yeah. It was. But I what I did get out of it was mostly thinking about others' feelings. My dad cooks all the time. My mom's a terrible cook! My mom's so incompetent we have to work together now that we don't live with my dad anymore. And I do wish to work. And I don't want kids. Like I said before.

Why don't you do the dishes TOGETHER? Or will he be taking care of the kids, giving them baths and stuff? I know you say down below you don't want kids - but things change and chances are this is something that will change for you.

yeah, that's what everyone has said. And there's a good chance they're right. I don't do the dishes together, because I hate people getting in my way. It was the same when I worked at the restaurant.Usually I never do much serious cleaning unless I'm home alone. There's lots of other things to do together though- and not just fun things either. Just probably not the dishes. Ah! I love it! Thanks for bringing that up.

Of course you want him to be happy - but there is also your happiness too. Submissiveness of a wife IS NOT something that would make me happy. And having a wife that cooked and cleaned and stuff like you have described - would not make me happy. A marriage is about a relationship and communication

Like I said, I definately care about my own happiness, and I'm not submissive, at all. And I know I wouldn't be happy just having a husband who only worked all day and took care of manly things and repaired the house and all that, so I wouldn't expect a man to be happy just because I did wife-ly things. Hardly! But, I'm also not talking about you. I'm talking about someone I know and you don't. And, it really goes deeper than that. Cleaning, and cooking and all. It never really had to do with marriage for me. But relating that to marriage has other reasons which are too complicated to explain.

You don't sound like a retard or stupid or anything - just remember that your outlook and dreams can change too.

I know, isn't that cool? My dreams change almost daily. But it's still fun to dream! And thanks.^^

There's another thing I was thinking about that I didn't mention. About wanting to become "that kind of person". It has meant a lot of things to me. But it was never just about housework. It was also about sharing things, like astronomy and Labyrinth, and about the National Guard, and the Jeep, understanding about playing Lightning and walking away by yourself.... and about the parents, the sisters, and Indy too. It's ok if no one understands. When I say good wife I'm talking about these things too. I guess if anyone's actually interested I can explain how all these elements combined, but I kinda doubt that.

You know, I'm not able to go on the internet between 7 and 11 on weeknights, for more than usually 15 minutes. Unfortunately, my time ran out just before I was able to post, and so I've had to wait until now. Has anyone noticed that I can be ridiculously optimistic sometimes? Well, at night I tend to be more melancholy. Then I start talking about something, and later when I'm in a happy mood I think "What the hell was I talking about?" So, sorry if I'm doing that now. What I want to say was, on the internet, it's really hard to understand people. I'm a lot different person when I'm discussing something, even in real life. And I haven't taken much time trying to understand you all either. So it's hard to talk about very personal (personal as in specific to the individual) things.

Also, I can't help doing it- I respect most of you guys a lot. Because of that, part of me wants someone to return that respect. I hope that in feeling that I haven't comprimised myself, and that my true feelings have remained intact. In the end, I want to change my imperfect notions, but something inside of me feels the need to defend myself, and then I have a hard time because I end up saying something I don't mean just because it sounds best. I've been doing that for as long as I can remember. I'm good at justifying things philosophically, like why I should have that second piece of cake, or why my mom should allow me to stay home from school. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry for talking to much about myself and being a little too honest, haha! It's just because the thing we were talking about kind of was using me as an example and so I wanted to clarify things as much as possible. I start talking just because I like to talk and then things I say get taken seriously.^^; Oh yeah, thanks everyone for helping me to understand myself better.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You know what's really funny - watch some old tv shows and commercials. Talk about sexist.

One thing that bothers me with today's commercials is now it's okay to make husbands look like complete morons who can't do anything. There is the Grand Turismo 4/Toys R Us commercial and the mother comes home with the game and yells upstairs that she got the game for them. Two kids then come running around the corner and start down the stairs - then the father comes around the corner and jumps over the banister and smashes the table and runs to the package the mother is holding. He grabs it out of her hand like a little kid. There are many commercials like that today where the father is looked at as an idiot - while the mother is the mature parent.

I didn't think it was possible to be sexist towards men and women at the same time, but I think this ad just pulled it off.
1. The man, as you pointed out, it no more mature than his children. It sends the message that men are stupid, and reinforces the whole "men are pigs" rot.
2. It says that it's the woman's role to not only be a successful career woman but also to run the entire household by herself.
This is actually a disturbing and observeable attitude today.

I think this is very important for a marriage too. I think it would put a huge strain on the marriage if the woman is going absolutely insane juggling family and career with no help from her husband. He'd have a career too, but still, the woman should not be the only one taking care of the home.

I think there's sexism in our society less towards women than towards femininity. Observe:
- there is still, ridiculously, a taboo against male nurses and other traditionally female jobs (it's certainly lessening, but much less than women taking traditionally male jobs)
- it's an insult to call a bunch of guys "ladies". You wouldn't tease your girl friends by calling them "men" but you would by calling someone a "girly girl"
- how many househusbands do you know? Is that even a word?

I'm sure there are more. But I think this anti-femininity attitude is contibuting to the husband (in couples with this attitude anyway) not wanting to contibute to the home management. It's not like people aren't feminine, it's that people who are are regarded as silly or not as good on some level.

I'm not going to belabour the teamwork thing Katya because I think you do know what we were talking about. I can see wanting to wash the dishes alone if you worked in a restaurant - you can probably do it faster and more easily alone than with "help".

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

This is NOT debateable - there is NO true translation. You can think what you want on this matter as is your right. My right is to disagree. The closest thing is the Greek version I believe.

The Greek would be good, but of little help to me, since I don't read, speak or write it. However, there are certainly some translations that are better than others.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So god judges morality on the times we live in - huh? That's good to know.

Now you know I didn't say that. I'm simply saying I don't have all the answers and that we can't find them so easily.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

No need to start a slavery thread. My comments aren't even about slavery - my comments are regarding the archaic nature of wives being subserviant to the husband and how that is just as outdated as the parts about slavery. You can defend the submission parts all you want - I think it's nothing but archaic nonsense that some people insist on clinging to.

But you had twice said something about the Bible supporting slavery.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Wow - it took three lines to tell me that you will direct me to where you have already said it - wouldn't it have been easier just to post it again. It would have taken at most 5 words.

I chose to do so for a reason - to keep this thread from going into a third (or is it fourth) topic. Let it alone. (and your own three line reply was much longer than a simple 'thank you'! )

[Snowdog]

On Marriage... been married twice... I'm against it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now you know I didn't say that. I'm simply saying I don't have all the answers and that we can't find them so easily.

Of course you can't find them easily and you nor rian can say that your beliefs are the correct beliefs either.

But you had twice said something about the Bible supporting slavery.

And it does pretty much support slavery. It doesn't condemn it at all. It acknowledges it. It only puts limits on killing basically - which is already in the 10 commandments.

I chose to do so for a reason - to keep this thread from going into a third (or is it fourth) topic. Let it alone. (and your own three line reply was much longer than a simple 'thank you'! )

And why would I say "thank you" when there was nothing to thank you for. It was a simple question - it would not have gone off in another direction. This is ridiculous - you act like this topic is way off - when it's not. The slavery issue is being brought up in terms of the archaic nature of the "submission" issue in the bible. The fact that you are defending so vigilantly the bible - brings into what religion you are and how you feel toward it. Certain religions - such as pentecostals - take the bible at it's literal meaning.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Okay, this sounds sexist: "your husband will probably be tired from a long day at work, so you should have a nice hot meal ready for him." But it's so disconnected from anything applicable to today's society IMO! However, I also think it's hilarious. I get a good chuckle out of statements like these.

I find that hilarious too because it is such a far cry from how it used to be at my home when I was younger. Mum would be away at work nearly the whole day, while dad usually worked at home at his desk half the day and spent the rest of the day on the road. Dad fetched us from school and kept a watchful eye on whether or not we were doing our homework, which we always did next to his desk.

He had to go and fetch mum (mum can't drive) in the evening so they both got home tired at the same time! Dad did the shopping and mum still did the cooking (dad can't cook) and we, my sister and I, were left with the dishes! But when my mother does the dishes and dad sees it, he usually grabs a towel and starts helping her without having to be asked. And they both do the laundry when able (except that my dad doesn't know how to iron).

Being brought up in such a situation, I doubt I would espect anything less from my (hypothetical) husband.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Of course you can't find them easily and you nor rian can say that your beliefs are the correct beliefs either.

Of course I wouldn't say that! You don't need to worry about me saying that.

After LOTS of thought and evaluation, I believe (altho I don't know - NO ONE can "know" for sure whether God exists or doesn't exist) that Christianity is a true description of the actual state of the universe (and beyond!), but I've always acknowledged I could very well be wrong I might say something like "I think my beliefs are correct", but I wouldn't say I KNOW they're correct.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

...(except that my dad doesn't know how to iron).

My husband irons more than I do - I'm allergic to irons

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

On Marriage... been married twice... I'm against it.

SD - (is/did) your second one not (working/work) out?

[inked]

Of interest: a review of the various modes of viewing what "marriage" is. Of course, this may lead to further discussions !

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001086.cfm

[Lotesse]

Marriage is ridiculous. It is an institution regulated by both the church AND the state to ensure better control over the masses. Any private contract between two loving people should be their business only, to share with just each other, or include their friends & family or whatever, but NOT sanctioned and O.K.ed and regulated and rewarded by the church, or by the government, or even by the two people's parents.

[Valandil]

Lotesse - I profoundly, but respectfully, disagree.

Marriage has served as the basic building-block for all human societies. The cynical view is in vogue today, but I dread the thought of where we'd be without it - and also the observation that it may become rendered irrelevant or go by the wayside, in society at large.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i agree wholeheartedly with lotesse,
IMO marriage is just between two people, and all this religious/state sanctioning is a bit ridiculous, ok sure 500 years ao, when religion meant more to more people, then we are talking a whole different kettle of fish, but now in this post-modernist world, then we have to wonder, is it really worth it? would anyone really think any less of their husband/wife if they had their own surname etc? somehow i dont think so