Philosophy

[Lotesse]

Total semantics. Truth is a human concept, period. It is reality that animals & plants use trickery to get through life, but they are not engaged in telling the truth or telling a lie any more than they can conceptualise the idea of truth VS. deception. The reality is, they do what they do to get through their lives. Only human beings label their behaviour truthful or deceptive. Not the animals and plants. It is a human concept.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But the truth is that this was a subterfuge. The truth is the reality that the bird tricked the cat. The truth to the cat would be that the cat was injured, but that is merely belief about the truth, it isn't the truth itself. Animals and people make mistakes about what the truth is.

my point was that nature does lie when the bird lies to the cat, and the butterfly to the bird and so on...

Originally Posted by Lief

So I guess any disagreement we have (and this goes for Lotesse and Rohirrim too) largely just comes from different definitions of the word truth.

yes I think thats what happened.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

interesting, you know one might term the definition of "reality" as "absolute truth" or "TRUE truth" if that is your definition of course.
this is becoming an interesting exchange in semantics I must say.

Aye, that's pretty much all it is . So we seem all agreed that absolute truth exists if it is defined as the state of reality (though we aren't agreed that it should be defined that way, I know). But we agree that the state of reality isn't relative. I am sitting on a very comfortable chair at this moment, typing on a laptop. That truth isn't relative. I'm not also in my garage stroking my darling little baby guinea pig Celestia at the moment. More's the pity . But the state of reality is what it is, no matter what people think about it. There are opinions about the state of reality and there is reality itself, and that reality is absolute. To me this sentence is the same as: There are beliefs about truth and there is the truth itself, and that truth is absolute.

Jeesh, this is very freaky. I'm wondering now if all the debates I've had on this subject throughout all my time on Entmoot have been caused solely by different definitions of the word "truth".

That's a horrific thought. I may have wasted tens of hours on a misunderstanding of semantics .

[Lotesse]

Funky semantics misunderstandings gone unchecked can do that, too, Lief, for real! I bet there's a few debates I've been in where there is an underlying current of unaddressed semantic misunderstanding causing confusion, and screwing with the nature of the debate.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

my point was that nature does lie when the bird lies to the cat, and the butterfly to the bird and so on...

Yeah, I have no problem with that. I only said that there would be no lies if there was no life.

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

yes I think thats what happened.

Scary . Thank goodness we discovered the definition difference!

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Total semantics.

I agree .

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Truth is a human concept, period.

Just note for future reference that whenever I refer to "truth", I'm referring to the state of reality. These differences of definition are totally freaky.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Funky semantics misunderstandings gone unchecked can do that, too, Lief, for real! I bet there's a few debates I've been in where there is an underlying current of unaddressed semantic misunderstanding causing confusion, and screwing with the nature of the debate.

It's got me totally freaked out. I'm going to be much more careful in the future.

[rohirrim TR]

well I'm glad we got that sorted out. except now I think were left without a topic...

[Lief Erikson]

Maybe Brownjenkins will argue that absolute truth (defined as the state of reality) is relative.

[Spock]

Reality what a concept.

--Mork from Ork ----

[Lief Erikson]

Lol.

[Lotesse]

Well, I sure wouldn't say reality is relative. Relative to what? Nothingness? But nothingness, like the interior of a black hole or something, is still a reality. Existence, the state of reality, is not a relative to anything. It just - is.

Truth is a human concept, a way for human beings to categorise their experience and understanding of reality, to have things begin to make sense to them. A thing to be true or false is a human's prerogative to figure out, but truth does not exist without a human being thinking that it does.

[rohirrim TR]

if we started arguing black holes I'll bet TB would join and blast us to oblivion with some quantum physics...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Well, I sure wouldn't say reality is relative. Relative to what? Nothingness? But nothingness, like the interior of a black hole or something, is still a reality. Existence, the state of reality, is not a relative to anything. It just - is.

I'm very glad we agree on this .

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Truth is a human concept, a way for human beings to categorise their experience and understanding of reality, to have things begin to make sense to them. A thing to be true or false is a human's prerogative to figure out, but truth does not exist without a human being thinking that it does.

I'm not sure I understand how you are defining truth. You're saying it's a human concept, but what human concept is it? I know you're trying to explain it, but I'm not understanding.

[Lotesse]

We're not arguing black holes or quantum physics here, Rohirrim, nor are we having star wars fights. There is a Science thread for physics discussions, and there are all kinds of Star Wars threads for those sort of games.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm not sure I understand how you are defining truth. You're saying it's a human concept, but what human concept is it? I know you're trying to explain it, but I'm not understanding.

Well, what other humans are there? You're asking me what human concept it is, well what other humans are out there besides homo sapiens?

definition from Cambridge online dictionary


Truth: noun

1 [U] the quality of being true:
There would seem to be some truth in what she says.
There is no truth in the reports of his resignation.
You cannot question the truth of his alibi.
And yet what he says contains at least a grain of (= a small amount of) truth.

2 the truth the real facts about a situation, event or person:
But was he telling the truth?
I don't suppose we'll ever know the truth about what happened that day.
To tell (you) the truth (= Speaking honestly) I'm quite pleased he's not coming.

3 [C] FORMAL a fact or principle which is thought to be true by most people:
It would seem to be a general truth that nothing is as straightforward as it at first seems.
The entire system of belief is based on a few simple truths.

[Spock]

Truth and other concepts are subjective. Reality is subjective to those perceiving it.
Parallel Universe Theory negates that reality is just one thing.

.....there is just ONE thing but only "Curly" knows it.

[Lief Erikson]

Lotesse, I'm glad you posted the dictionary definitions. The definition I adhere to in my posts about truth vs. relativity is definitions 1 and 2. Even definition 3 though says that it's merely talking about what is "thought to be true", which to me is the same as belief. So definition 3 is belief, in my view.

Definition 1 is talking about true statements. For example, "I'm sick with a cough," would be an example of a true statement (unfortunately ). There are true statements, but true statements cannot exist without people to say them. Like lies, they require the existence of life to exist.

Then there is the truth of reality, which definition 2 is talking about. "The truth the real facts about a situation, event or person." That's the state of reality, and that's the definition of truth that I'm always using. Though as definition 1 points out, there are also true statements. These statements are statements that correctly convey the state of reality.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Spock

Truth and other concepts are subjective. Reality is subjective to those perceiving it.

Yes, subjective to those perceiving it, but if I'm saying reality is synonymous with existence and being, then it is not subjective to any perception, it just is, period, whether it is being perceived or not. Reality, existence, it just is. It doesn't require someone believing it or disbelieving it in order to exist, to be real, reality just - is.

Lief, I have to log off now, I have things to do, but I'll be back later on this evening. We can keep talking about truth & reality and stuff like this then, if you like. It's a pleasure debating with you today!

[Lief Erikson]

Philosophy is cool .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Do you mean that if humans weren't around, there would be no truth? Such as, the earth exists; normal horses have 4 legs; the dog just jumped into the lake, etc.

Sorry, brownie, you gotta support that more before I'll accept it!

It has nothing to do with whether there is or isn't truth. It has everthing to do with whether or not humans can claim to perceive any of these truths. At best, all we can say is that something "appears to be true as far as we can tell".

Physical "truths" are limited by our perception. Moral truths are limited by how we define them. If there were no humans, there might still be an earth, but there probably would not be "good" and "evil".