02-13-2004, 10:24 AM | #201 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Maybe that desparity isn't so great... from the numbers you show, the race of victims is very much in keeping with the general population - so that makes sense... a criminal mostly picking out a random target. It's also interesting to see the rackial makeup of those executed and on death row... Meanwhile, I'm gonna have to learn how to start finding that information. Does it usually take awhile? Like multiple searches, and checking numerous search results? Does it take 30, 40 or 60 minutes to turn up info like that or can you do it in 2 or 5 (I'm guessing with you and many other 'mooters, the latter - with me, the former. ) |
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02-13-2004, 01:05 PM | #202 | |
Elf Lord
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I hasten to add that I do think that there is a racial bias in both charging and sentencing in Britain, Canada and the UK at least, and probably most other countries as well ( the race being discriminated against varies), but that it is also true that minorities tend to have a higher crime rate, due, I would guess, mostly to poverty.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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02-13-2004, 04:42 PM | #203 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Anyway, Val answered the point about the commandment very well, IMO, when he said: Quote:
And I'm not 100% sure the death penalty is right, either, but I think that it is the better of 2 difficult choices. I remember a few years ago, when we had to make an extremely complicated/important medical decision for our son with the handicaps, that the doctor told us basically that there was no "right" choice here - we just had to look at each choice and weigh the ramifications, and make the choice that we thought was best. I think it's a similar thing with the death penalty.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-13-2004 at 04:45 PM. |
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02-13-2004, 04:52 PM | #204 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What I mean is that EVERY law that a society passes "makes a statement" about what a society thinks is valuable/important. If there is a law against stealing, then it's obvious that the society thinks stealing is wrong. And if the penalty for stealing is less than the penalty for murder, then it's obvious that the society thinks murder is a worse thing than stealing. That's what I meant. A murderer can choose to not murder, BTW. They are not forced to their death. There can be a law and a penalty for breaking the law on the books, and if everyone chose to not murder, then the penalty would never be carried out. It's about choice, and consequences of choice. And yes, again, there can be some mistakes, but the INTENT of the society is to be careful and fair, and I think the percentage of innocent people that get the death penalty is very small. It's not "fair" to BE murdered by a murderer, either I think there is a big difference between a government death penalty execution with the intent of being careful and fair, and the coldblooded choice of a murderer to kill someone for personal gain.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-13-2004 at 04:53 PM. |
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02-13-2004, 04:57 PM | #205 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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02-13-2004, 05:00 PM | #206 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-13-2004, 05:02 PM | #207 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-13-2004, 05:22 PM | #208 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I remember reading somewhere that the people that wanted to be leaders should be disqualified, and only those that didn't want to be a leader should be elected. Kind of a funny idea, but there's definitely a good point in there - so many leaders are in it for the power and attention, and so few for the good of others (at least it seems that way )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-13-2004, 05:24 PM | #209 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-13-2004, 05:26 PM | #210 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(rather apropos for this discussion board, innit?) [/language police mode]
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-13-2004, 06:26 PM | #211 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-13-2004, 06:30 PM | #212 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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You know RÃ*an, of the last 9 posts you've posted 7.
Just to state my opinion, I'm mostly against the death-penalty for the reasons already mentioned.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-13-2004 at 06:31 PM. |
02-13-2004, 07:20 PM | #213 |
Elf Lord
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In Israel (where I live, if you didn't know) there was, I believe, 1 death sentence from its indepedence, in 1948. It was for Eichman, a nazi, who was responsible of dreadful actions.
There is a law in Israel that permits it, but only when someone does a horrible thing. Even when a terrorist that murdered many is captured, or when the murderer of our Prime Minister was captured, they weren't sentenced to death. I don't think you should actually murder a murderer, unless he killed many, many people, delibarately. So I generally agree with my goverment. |
02-14-2004, 01:04 AM | #214 | |
Banned
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You'd need to find statistics on types of crime and what 'race' commits them. I don't even know were you'd find that information, but I'm sure it's out there someplace. To just say that a prison population should represent a smaller population of the country doesn't make sense, since people don't commit crimes according to whether they're of a certain 'race' or not. criminal #1: "oh, damn! I wanted to rob a house today, but according to these statistics I'll have to wait until the population for my 'race' in prisons goes down before I can do that. " criminal #2: "Yippee! I can go rob that house because the percentage of my 'race' in prisons has gone down! Aren't I lucky!" |
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02-14-2004, 01:06 AM | #215 | |
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Oh, sorry Rian, it's that time of the month for me. |
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02-14-2004, 04:36 AM | #216 | ||
Elf Lord
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In law, ignorance is no defence, so we can't assume that people know the penalties ahead of time. Also, I think it was established a few pages back that the death penalty does not work as a deterrent. As for considering your crime, you could easily argue that spending the rest of your natural life in a cage leaves more opportunity for that and, in spiritual terms, for redemption. To me, the moral case lies with OUR actions, not with murderers'. We have responsibility for what WE do first and foremost, long before we have any kind of responsibility for what other people do. When we carry out the death penalty, what is the nature of our actions? On top of this are the consequences of our actions: the inevitability that we will get it wrong, the bias in the system which may mean that we're systematically executing one group of people more than others, and the fact that we're, in part, punishing people for crimes they haven't yet committed. Nice to see you back in top form, by the way Quote:
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02-14-2004, 07:22 AM | #217 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Why should anyone of us have the right to put ourselves in a position to decide whether another person has the right to live or not? Yes, I know that all murderers have placed themselves in that position, but we believe that to be wrong, is it not then also wrong for us? The death penalty is hypocritical, imo.
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02-14-2004, 12:13 PM | #218 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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as i said... in our real world it is much more likely that a criminal will get out and perform a violent crime again than that an innocent person will be put to death it is a lesser of two evils in my eyes... imperfect, for sure, but preferable
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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02-14-2004, 12:15 PM | #219 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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02-14-2004, 12:19 PM | #220 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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and as i said... if true "life sentences" were available... the death penalty would be uneccessary
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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