03-25-2005, 06:00 PM | #201 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Lief: I do find the term somewhat insulting, but by this point I'm used to it from other discussions (not with you ) and I'm not Christian. But so long as it isn't "unbelievers," which has historical overtones of religious genocide, I'm fine.
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EDIT: *waves to Jerseydevil in cross-posting* the reason the thread was necessary was because the threadstarter in GLB didn't want the discussion of marriage there, so we moved it here. Just because we're backwashing doesn't mean the central "marriage" idea of this thread isn't different.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 03-25-2005 at 06:01 PM. |
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03-25-2005, 06:05 PM | #202 | |
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As for cows . . . who knows? We know from the scripture that reptiles committed a sin that caused them to have to crawl on their bellies rather then stand upright. Animals clearly can sin. Perhaps God sent Mad Cow Disease as a punishment. Perhaps Satan sent it because cows are so loyal to God, as he did to Job . Perhaps there's some utterly different reason! It's an interesting question, though .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-25-2005, 06:08 PM | #203 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-25-2005, 06:10 PM | #204 | ||
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I am starting to spend a bit too much time in here, and I also will be busy and/or gone for the next week.
However, I will still read the interesting discussion you guys have put forth, espicially Lief's now readable post #190. I'll just make one comment - when I said we were both Anglicans, I thought you were one for some reason because you had made comments about the Episcopalian church. Now I see what you really meant though. (Are you the youth leader an an Episcopalian church?)
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03-25-2005, 06:13 PM | #205 | ||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-25-2005, 06:22 PM | #206 | ||
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In the discussion among the teenagers at youth group that night, I had my first taste of liberal opinions, and they were shocking to me. I determined at that moment to keep coming, to try to help spread what I believe to be the truth in that place. I was a good deal more knowledgeable then the average teenager my age, and our youth leader heard me debating with the other students that first night. Almost immediately, he swooped me up into the leadership. A few months later, the Episcopalian church leadership rid themselves of him, after persecuting him for a long time. I was retained as an assistant leader though, along with the other older students he'd gathered. That's the history as far as the youth group is concerned. I started coming to the church in the first place because my mother plays there as the organist.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-26-2005, 11:31 PM | #207 | ||||||||
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By your logic on this, you are going to need to decide what harmful means exactly. and if gay marriage doesn’t meet that level of harm then you will have to allow it. Under my logic, in the case of consenting adults, harm is irrelevant. If both parties wish to enter into a union that other may see as ill chosen that should be their right. The EXACT same is true for a man and a woman who enter into a union that others may see as ill chosen. And that happens hundreds of times a day. Quote:
And anyway you haven’t found strong enough reasons to keep homosexuals from marrying so again how can you use this line of reasoning? Quote:
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And after that tell me why one of these should be allowed during the testing and the other shouldn’t. Quote:
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03-26-2005, 11:38 PM | #208 | |||||||||
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belief “without evidence”… and if you can make these statements I can certainly say that logic would dictate that allowing marriage to be an option for a people who formally didn’t have that option would only ENCOURAGE better stronger relationships from the sheer psychological impact alone. You see leif, marriage has a certain aura to it that a simple relationship just doesn’t have. What if allowing gays to marry only improved their current situation and didn’t prove harmful at all. I think just a little common sense would make my belief about that quite reasonable…
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-27-2005, 12:33 AM | #209 |
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You know what Insidious, I think we're talking over one another's heads. We're making no progress. You don't feel I've responded effectively to your arguments, and I feel the same way about your response to mine. It's hence a useless conversation. I'm done. See you on another thread . Or perhaps just discussing something else on this thread .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-01-2005 at 12:29 PM. Reason: I phrased something in a way that could be easily misunderstood. |
11-22-2005, 05:36 PM | #210 | ||
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*bump*
One major issue in the debates around gay marriage seems to be the use of the word "marriage". I think a lot of people don't actually understand how marriages legally work in Canada. (Possibly the same applies to Americans and American marriage laws.) But that's not the real issue with the word "marriage". Do you think some people currently unsupportive of gay marriage would be okay with gay civil unions?
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11-22-2005, 08:19 PM | #211 |
Word Santa Claus
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There isn't really a question about that... the polling numbers take a huge jump when you change the word "marriage" to "civil unions." I remember last year, around the election, I saw that something like 2/3 of Americans opposed gay marriage, but a bit over 1/2 supported gay civil unions. Ah, diction.
I found a really interesting quote (that I can't recall verbatim) from Blackstone's Commentaries in 1765 (on English law, obviously, as America did not exist) that stated that "marriage is a civil contract." That's a fact/point of law I don't think is really well known, especially here in the US.
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11-30-2005, 08:39 PM | #212 |
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Let me not to marriage of true minds admit impediments ...
That was between the sexes as a civil contract, Count. But you can also call marriage a covenant. A civil union can be betwixt the same sex and is designed to give the legal benefits of equal status to partners as in marriage which is between the sexes. See it's that sex thing, over and over and over......
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12-01-2005, 12:24 AM | #213 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-01-2005, 02:19 AM | #214 |
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No, Inked, I (and Blackstone) meant a contract between two individuals. Each marriage is a separate contract. Clearly of course Blackstone was referring to male/female contracts, but if it is a civil contract that means that it may have its boundaries defined by the state as to who may enter into it.
Covenant has the same basic meaning, although it obviously has far more religious and permanent connotations. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds Or bends with the remover to remove.
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12-01-2005, 12:27 PM | #215 | |
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Even if there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual relationships, these studies at least would show that and thus help to debunk myths. The main problem is finding an unbiased source to carry out these studies.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-01-2005, 12:38 PM | #216 |
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i don't think laws should have anything to do with sexual relationships at all... can you think of a law that needs to exist purely on the basis of whether two people are married or not?
i.e. ~ laws involving children are enforced in the same way, whether or not the two parents are married... the same is the case with laws involving property that two people in some way own and/or maintain jointly... US tax laws vary according to marriage, but many think that this is actually a very outdated idea why not remove "marriage" entirely from the legal system and make everything a "civil union"... or, even better, don't even bother recognizing any kind of civil contract at all, and just deal with everyone case by case where legal matters arise
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12-01-2005, 12:48 PM | #217 | |
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We could also have laws that take into consideration the social differences of two people. A marriage between an outgoing person and a more introvert person should have different laws applied to them than a marriage between two soul mates. No, one would be laughed at if one proposed such legislation. Imo, cultural differences shouldn't matter. Social differences shouldn't matter. So why should biological differences matter? I don't think they should. I believe people are more biased towards biologically different marriages (same-sex marriages) than culturally or socially different marriages and that's why people want same-sex marriages excluded from the usual marriage legislation. All relationships are unique. Marriage laws should include them all.
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12-01-2005, 02:27 PM | #218 | |
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12-01-2005, 10:24 PM | #219 | |||||||||
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I'll get back to you with more information on this subject, if you press me. Quote:
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This is one demonstration of how laws that apply to heterosexuals might not be appropriate when applied to homosexuals. Sure, my example is controversial. It would be less controversial if studies were enacted to see whether or not there are significant differences between heterosexual and homosexual relationships. Such studies might also help make people more accepting of the idea of finding the appropriate place for homosexuals in society. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-02-2005, 01:54 AM | #220 | ||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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