11-27-2002, 12:30 PM | #201 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Are you saying that the 11,000 murders are NOT related to the gun laws?
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11-27-2002, 12:44 PM | #202 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I do support manditory background checks at gun shows - I think that is one thing that is missing. Do you know what gun laws we do have? Or are you just assuming that we have lax gun laws because that's what your media reports? State by State Gun Laws Research Library | State Gun Laws - This is from an NRA related site - but it does go far more in depth with the various state laws. Quote:
I think that only American citizens should be allowed to buy guns in America. Since we don't have a national ID card - something I am against anyway - I'm not exactly sure how that would really work. Deaths: total, total and common accidental, and firearm-related (Excel Spreadsheet) Quote:
Are UK Gun Laws Better Than US Gun Laws - I don't have the stats to back up what this person from the Daily Telegraph claims though. We live in a freer country than Britain - and because of our freedoms - it is more of the individual's responsbility to be law abiding. We don't have security cameras watching us all over the place (although they are coming and many Americans - including me are outraged) 24/7. Criminals break or get around laws - law abiding citizens are the ones that are restricted by them. Laws are used by government to take away the freedoms of it's citizens. It does nothing to prevent criminal behavior.
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11-27-2002, 01:47 PM | #203 |
Elven Warrior
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My cousin has a friend who was in her car at a red light and these men got out of their car with bats and crow bars and stuff and started coming at her. she reached under her seat and got a gun and just put it to the window and they turned around and went back.
i haven't read this thread since i didn't read it one day and it grew 4 pages.anyway i was jsut gonna put that in so people who are dead against guns can read it. cause if she hadn't had a gun she could have been killed or raped or something.
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11-27-2002, 02:10 PM | #204 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-27-2002, 05:39 PM | #205 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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It's not just criminals that kill people with guns. There are accidents. There was the case in Flint, Michigan (I think it was Flint. . .) where a 6 year old (okay, forgive me if i say something innacurate this is all from memory) found a gun in his uncle's house, brought it to school and killed a 6 year old girl. He was not a criminal, he was a young child who's mother had to get up very early to take a bus to another city to work at a mall all day and come home late at night, and still she was not making enough money to pay the rent. So she was staying with her brother, where her son found a gun and brought it to school.
. . .just a thought. It's not all criminals who have guns illegally.
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11-27-2002, 05:45 PM | #206 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Tons of people die every year in fires that are started by children getting a hold of lighters - I don't really see the difference. Maybe we should outlaw lighters.
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11-27-2002, 06:06 PM | #207 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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yes, it is the uncle's responsibility to make sure the gun is out of the way. but maybe he shouldn't have a handgun in the first place, eh? and maybe the kid's mother shouldn't have to spend all day working very hard in another town only to not be able to pay the rent so that she has to go stay with her brother who happens to have a gun. maybe she should be able to have a job that would enable her to spend more time with her kids, and make enough money to live on. but that's just not the way of the world...<sigh> but my point was that accidents happen all the time and often it is not criminals using guns to kill people but it's accidents and other things like that. unlike you, JD i don't have all the time in the world to back up my arguments with statistics and articles, so i'll leave it at that.
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11-27-2002, 06:14 PM | #208 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The other stuff you mentioned concerning the child's mother - has nothing to do with it. I won't even bother to comment on it.
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11-27-2002, 08:57 PM | #209 | |
Head Hollara
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I want to file a countersuit on McDonalds' behalf for mental anguish... I get soooo riled up when I even think about those lawsuits.
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11-27-2002, 09:06 PM | #210 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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It's the new get rich quick scheme - except people are too ignorant to see that it's really the lawyers that push a lot of these lawsuits so THEY can make millions.
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11-27-2002, 09:19 PM | #211 | |
Head Hollara
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"People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. |
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11-27-2002, 09:39 PM | #212 | |||
Elven Warrior
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11-27-2002, 11:42 PM | #213 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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i am officially pulling myself from this thread.
this is JUST A THREAD remember. no need to get all jumpy and bi***y about anything on it. sheesh, some people can just never control themselves.
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11-28-2002, 03:26 AM | #214 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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JD, perhaps you ought to think a little more about causes that are not directly related to a problem. there is usually a connection, somewhere. LuthienTinuviel, you're right. it's just a thread. i'm getting far too crazy about this and perhaps i ought to just stop before this turns into an all out flame war, which, considering my strong feelings on the subject, it's bound to do. (at least where i'm involved) so, i'm not leaving the thread entirely, but...<sigh> i'm not going to keep arguing. i know what i think is right and i see there's no hope of convincing others who are equally set in their ways.
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11-28-2002, 03:41 AM | #215 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I can think a thousand causes that people like to blame - that are equally cop outs. Let's see - movies, music, video games, tv shows, poverty, broken homes, drugs, gangs. The list goes on and on. The truth is that people generally CHOOSE not to lock up their guns or they CHOOSE to go out and commit a crime with a gun.
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11-28-2002, 03:47 AM | #216 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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if people are going to be that irresponsible, then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to have handguns.
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11-28-2002, 05:48 AM | #217 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Interesting. Had a quick look at JD's handy guide to state gun laws; there's quite a broad range. Illinois seems to be among the strictest. However, I wouldn't call his example of limiting purchases to one a month a repressive regime.
It seems to me that the difference is: in the US you can get a gun, unless The Man can prove you shouldn't have one; in the UK, you can't have a gun, unless you can show that you really need one. If it's criminality that is the problem, how come the death rate from guns is more than an order of magnitude greater, when the crime rate is about the same? Last edited by Dunadan : 11-28-2002 at 06:01 AM. |
11-28-2002, 11:40 AM | #218 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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How far should big brother government get into people's lives? I don't see a problem with requiring the government to have to prove that you can't have a gun - that is what this country is supposedly founded on. The fact that you are innocent until proven guilty. The criminals will get the guns regardless - as I've said. Actually - there was resently an accusatin against Britain saying that they have been doctoring their crime statistics. Supposedly if a person commits several crimes - it was being counted as a single crime. You can't really compare crime statistics or any statistics unless the two you are comparing use the same formulas to come up with the numbers.
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11-28-2002, 12:55 PM | #219 | |
Elf Lord
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International statistics on just about anything can be misleading. Tolerance of minor crimes in particular varies, so high crime rates for assault, motoring offences etc might indicate zealous policing rather than higher criminality. But from what I can see homicide comparisons are based on a body count due to any form of unlawful killing - ie adding up deaths, not "crimes" - and so should be comparable. You can't compare guns with cars because the purpose of cars is to get from A to B. Yes they can also be used to kill people, as can bread knives, bits or rope, a well-aimed biro etc. But that's not what they are intended to do. Guns on the other hand are intended to shoot things, and handguns are mostly intended to shoot people. The arguments I've seen in favour of gun ownership seem to be: The constitution says I can They were useful in the civil war We don't trust the federal government and might need to protect the delicate flower of American democracy with them The bad guys have them so I need one The last one I can understand. Maybe that does indeed outweigh any benefits from changing things. Maybe a transition from a gun-owning culture to a gun-free one would just be too difficult. I don't know, and it's not my problem. But if hanguns aren't really the issue, what is? WHY do Americans kill each other at about five times the rate of other countries?
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11-28-2002, 01:43 PM | #220 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Why was there a wave of school shootings. With those - it was the fact that people get picked on constantly. I just don't mean a little - I mean a lot. No one wants to look at that. It's too much of a difficult problem to deal with. Also - people don't want to admit that either they or their children treat others like crap. You can see by what are the popular shows on TV that people would rather see backstabbing and people being down right mean to each other - that society accepts it. Until society - and not through government intervention - wakes up and realises that maybe we shouldn't be so concerned about who gets kicked off of Survivor or cheers when in the movies someone gets decapitated - maybe then we will have less crime. The sniper situation wasn't so funny in real life - but I can imagine the cheers that would have been going on in the theater if it was a movie - because I've seen it happen. I don't blame media for crime - I think media is more a reflection of society. Media reacts to what society wants. if being nice to people was more popular - you'd see more shows where people are nice to one another. Instead we have the Bachelor, Survivor, Weakest Link, etc.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-28-2002 at 01:45 PM. |
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