12-01-2004, 05:01 PM | #201 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Then again, maybe not. Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
||
12-01-2004, 05:15 PM | #202 | ||||||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
@ Wayfarer:
That could have been an English paper, Wayfarer. I understand most of what you’re saying. At least, I think I do. I cannot debate with you on definitions 2-5 of evil, so I’m not going to try. Debating sense 1 would get us nowhere, so I’m not going to do too much of that. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It would be harder to defend Curufin and Celegorm, however (especially for me ) Perhaps, especially in situations like these, we should distinguish between the conscious intent to do evil (sense 2) and simply doing evil. I don’t believe that any of the sons of Fëanor went to ME with the express and conscious desire to lay waste to all the realms of Beleriand. Despite the harm that they caused, I do not believe that this ever changed (except perhaps for the C’s, though I know that some would choose and perhaps succeed at defending them). It is made clear that even during the kinslayings, it was not the destruction of other people that they desired. They always sent word demanding the Silmarils… before they attacked. Though the action of kinslaying was evil (sense 2, possibly sense 1), I do not believe that the sons of Feanor themselves were evil (sense 1). Orcs, on the other hand, obviously had this desire to cause ruin. Perhaps this could be the criteria by which we judge evil (sense 1). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
@ Eärniel Cute. Let's all move to Hollin... *ahem* Holland.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-01-2004 at 05:17 PM. |
||||||
12-01-2004, 05:28 PM | #203 | ||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Holland... Hollin. Hmmm... Nordic... Noldor.
Quote:
Quote:
I would even go so far as to say that the Orcs, while the majority of their actions were evil, were not simply pursuing evil for its own sake - they waged war out of fear of Morgoth and Sauron, they looted and pillaged in order to gain food and goods for themselves, and so forth.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 12-01-2004 at 05:44 PM. |
||
12-01-2004, 05:37 PM | #204 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
12-01-2004, 06:01 PM | #205 | ||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
I do not mind your argument at all, in fact, I agree with it, though it seems to me that it somewhat invalidates Evil (sense 1). So, clarify this for me... are you now arguing that the Orcs were not evil (sense 1)? Quote:
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
||
12-01-2004, 06:37 PM | #206 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Quote:
I didn't mean you were a critic in the sense of a published critic of Tolkien - I was making funny of his original critics who alleged the things I said - this back at the time of publication. CS Lewis and WH Auden took the opposite views and found Tolkien to be quite conducive to reflective thought - as it would appear do the persons on this thread, hence the 4th generation reading Tolkien "critically". Was I just trying too hard?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
|
12-02-2004, 03:02 PM | #207 | ||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Teddy, eh? Well TD, I would tend to propose that O and H are simply variables - all other things being equal, it doesn't really matter whether you flip them around. So O killing H pre-emptively would, considering the act itself (in the short term) and not the ramifications, be no more or less evil than H killing O in the same manner.
Of course this is complicated once one expands the problem - O might be more inclined to kill, so in the long term O killing H, even out of fear, might cause more harm (as O goes on to kill others) than H killing O. Additionally, O might have different characteristics than H, which may lead O to kill in a different manner, which could be considered more of an evil act (slow death by torture as opposed to a quick execution, for example). Quote:
In reverse order - I do maintain that the Orcs were 'wicked' (evil, def. 1). However, I draw a distinction in why they are evil. Hmm... let me try and illustrate this better... When you refer to the destructive impulses of the Orcs, I think we can agree that the destructive acts were Evil, that the impulses to do those acts were also Evil, and that in doing those acts the orcs themselves were Evil. However, when you suggest that this could perhaps be a criteria for judging wickedness (Evil, sense 1), you seem to think that the Orcs desire to do evil for its own sake. Someone fictional put this far better than I could when they said: Quote:
If pure, baseless Evil involves the complete absence of good, than it is really, as has been brought up before, a state of nothingness. And so, to desire Evil for its own sake is to desire nothingness. A wholly evil creature would desire the complete annihilation of reality, not only destroying everything but itself (like that sword that the one drug-using wizard had ) but ultimately the nullification of its own existance, and reality itself. That's just not something I can imagine as being possible to desire. So, what I suppose I am objecting to is the idea that evil is some concrete thing which can be desired in itself - the idea, as it were, that 'evil' is a kind of 'good' that some creatures seek after. Is that understandable? I think we can say that, for example, Orcs are 'wicked' according to the definition, but I do not think that they would consider themselves wicked, or that they are attempting to be wicked - ultimately their desire to destroy might boil down to 'they enjoy it', in which their goal (pleasure for themselves) is something which is certainly not evil and possibly good. It was CS Lewis who said 'Evil is what you get when you pursue good in the wrong way'. Melkor started out desiring something 'good' (Creative and Administrative Power). However, he attempted to achieve this in the wrong way - through violence and conquest, and the result was not the good he desired but further evil (since evil actions cannot have good consequences). Failing to achieve his original goal, he lowered his aim and attempted to take what he could get (Dominating power). Ultimately, when he could not dominate, he fell even further (seeking Destructive Power). You can see in this progression that Melkor starts out desiring something which is good, but moves steadily closer towards what would be considered pure evil - but at no point is pure evil his intended goal. I shall require some time to allow my thoughts to coagulate, but that's as clear as I can make it right now. I'll leave the discussion of 'wickedness' (Evil, sense 1) for later, since that's going to involve (Yay! ) more definitions.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
||
12-02-2004, 04:13 PM | #208 | ||||||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
My exact statement was Quote:
Quote:
I think this is what Haradrim was actually trying to express. That the idea, if not the popular definition, of wickedness is relative. Perhaps you disagreed with the manner in which he stated it, because it seems that in a way, you agree. Although Orcs, according to our definitions, Orcs are “wicked,” in their own eyes they are not. Enough with that. At this point, I don’t want to argue the legitimacy of definition of “wicked.” We can debate that later and I’m sure we will. Now to what I was saying before. I believe I was trying to say that by our standards at least, this “desire to destroy” because “they enjoy it” is what I was referring to as their “desire to cause ruin,” as I put it earlier, and the reason I could justify them as evil (sense 1). While they might not be seeking evil for its own sake, they are still consciously, willingly, and gleefully doing deeds we would usually consider evil (sense 1) and that are undoubtedly evil in several other senses. I do not believe the Orcs would repent of some of the evil they did, whereas several of the sons of Fëanor did repent. Quote:
Quote:
I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that “pure evil” as the desire for “the complete annihilation of reality” is not something Morgoth wanted. Alright, I can’t prove this one way or the other, since I don’t have the required books with me right now and won’t for several weeks, but I remember reading somewhere that Melkor was actually nihilistic, and did desire the destruction of everything, possibly including himself. The theory was that if he had destroyed Men and Elves and all the creations of the Valar, he would have eventually destroyed his own quasi-“Children” as well. Unfortunately, I can’t remember whether or not it was argued that he would eventually destroy himself as well. While Sauron wanted mastery over everything and to dominate it, Morgoth, unable to create a world in his own image, simply wanted to destroy the one that Eru had created. I wish I had the details on me, but I’m sure I’m not making this up… Quote:
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-02-2004 at 04:19 PM. |
||||||
12-02-2004, 04:24 PM | #209 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
NOTE: This is my most succesful thread!
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
12-02-2004, 10:29 PM | #210 |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Hey! You mean I just copied and linked that for no reason!
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-02-2004 at 10:30 PM. |
12-03-2004, 10:54 AM | #211 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
Quote:
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
|
12-03-2004, 05:30 PM | #212 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
I think you would agree with me on Gandalf's words that he would use a power(which itself is not good nor evil by nature) with notion to do good, just like the 9 kings -nazguls thought, and probably they did a lot of good things for their people, but the power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely . Even being not evil person, eventually you are loosing this definition between "evil, harmful" for somebody and "good, beneficial" for you domain, your people, choosing options which sereves better your interests and your country. This options could be evil in definition but not always evil in intention. Good, under circumstances, can cause as much harm as evil, this why for God/Eru they are equal and unseparated. It's our business to sort them out. |
|
12-03-2004, 06:53 PM | #213 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
It may have been your intent, but not Haradrim's, who posited that good and evil were basically local customs, and that nothing was really evil except by convention. I have posted over and over again that, as fallen creatures, there is evil in the best of us, but for One. I, au contraire argue that good and evil exist, that they are quantifiable and easily recognizable, though usually not at the same time, a la Heisenberg. Yes, there is some good in Orcs. Damned small, and hard to see, but it is there, just as there is evil in the greatest of saints. We know, because they have told us so. However, God (= Eru Iluvatar) is the source of all good and without stain, the humanly unattainable condition. Evil exists, but it parasitically must have some Good qualities to interact with humans, its intended prey. Ironic, no?
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
12-04-2004, 03:39 PM | #214 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
I wouls still cliam that good and evil are in a sense local customs. Evil is not universal and to identify it you hae to put yourself in the others shoes. As many of you have said, Sauron or Melkor did nto mean to do evil andprobably never thoguth they were doign evil. Hoever the free peoples of ME and the other Valar and Maiar found their actions to be evil. So they fought him. Now from Saurons POV he is trying to do something good and all these other people attack him for trying to do so. Now what do we call people who attack the act of good. Evil. SO in Melkor and Saurons eyes the other Valar Maiar and elves, men and dwarves, and halflings and others were evil. But if you reverse it. THese people thought Melkro and Sauron were doing evil. SO they attacked and what do we call something that attacks evil. Good. However since we hear the story from the side of the Valar, Maiar, Anar, humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, ents, and all others we see Melkor as good. But Tolkien could easily have switched the story around and made it from mlkors view and we would have seen the story completely differently.
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
12-04-2004, 03:59 PM | #215 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
So you think enslavement of whole populations and torture and execution of innocent people are just a misunderstanding? Man, You are really far gone. Let me just say that if you ever run up against true evil, you will recognize it, and you won't think it is subject to misunderstanding.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
12-04-2004, 04:11 PM | #216 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
well first of all lets make it clear as i have said so many tiomes I share your views of evil. I think Hitler was a wholly evil man, i think Suaron did unspeakable things I think the slaughter in Rwanda was terribel and I think that the twisting of humans or elves cant remember which into orcs was disgusting. Al these things bring a terrible taste into my mouth. I find therm evil and I dont think its do to misunderstanding. i think people need to be punished when they do evil. Howver not looking from the other persons pov is idiotic andd stupid. Sauron did terrible thingsbut did he think he ws doing evil? No did any of his followers think he was doing evil? No. DId Melkor think he was doing evil? No. Did they think the elves, men, dwarves, valar, maiar, and ents were evil? Yes. So from his POV he was good and they were evil. Did the elves, humans, dwarves, halflings, valar and mair think they were doing evil? No. Did they think what Melkor, Sauron, the Nazugl, the barrow-whights and the orcs were evil? Yes. However since everything is in Erus plan neither one is evil or good it just is. However I am on the side of the human, elves, dwarves, halfli9ngs, valar, maiar, and ents because I consider myself a good person and not an evil one. I however can understand why someone would do someing evil. The blind accusation of evil without any real thought or speculation as to why and did they think they were doing evil is plain stupid.
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
12-04-2004, 04:41 PM | #217 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
Quote:
Couldn't resist
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
||
12-04-2004, 06:43 PM | #218 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: trondheim, norway
Posts: 1,388
|
when looking to your post Aragorn, there is one thing I don't agree to . I think Sauron, Morgoth and their followers did know they were evil, and they did know they were acting evil. I ceartainly belive they thought they were doing the right, but I think also they were aware of the cruelty in their deeds. they knew it was not the way it should, razing, pillaging, and slaugthering. atleast Sauron and Morgoth did know they were acting against Eru.
__________________
Don't Panic! |
12-04-2004, 08:56 PM | #219 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
As far as my knowledge extends, everyone who we would consider "evil" in their own minds were doing the "right" thing.
As Pytt said, Sauron and Morgoth most likely realised that their actions were cruel (I cannot believe that anyone with plans for world domination/destruction would be so dense as to not see the obvious ), but in their own minds, they probably believed that they were in the "right." Quote:
In my mind, there is a difference between being misled, angry, confused, and/or desperate (a combination that could lead to any number of the things Attalus posted) and being evil. ...Haradrim, you seem to be switching sides more often than I do ... Can you explain your point of view more clearly?
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|
12-05-2004, 11:42 AM | #220 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
First of all, I think evil people are mostly in denial about the evil that they do. They mostly do what they want and what benefits them, and just don't think (or care) about the effects on others. As for the case of the South in the Civil War, Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) grew up in the prewar South and knew very well that slavery was evil, as did many other Southerners, like Robert E. Lee. They just preferred not to think about it and accept the status quo. Many Southerners fought just becuse of loyalty to their state and region, as most were not slaveowners. This is misguided, but is not the result of evil so much as fuzzy or lazy thinking. Only after their culture was shattered by the Northern victory were they free to think about it clearly. Thus, the idea that "violence never settles anything" once again is shown to be false.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Middle OF the Earth | TopazJedi | RPG Forum | 111 | 09-26-2003 10:39 PM |
What's going on in Middle Earth? | Fimbrethil | RPG Forum | 96 | 07-10-2003 06:28 PM |
Writewraiths in Middle Earth II: The Kingdom Rebuilt | Silverstripe | RPG Forum | 395 | 04-22-2003 10:42 AM |
Plan for a Virtual Middle Earth. | congressmn | Middle Earth | 61 | 02-01-2003 05:01 AM |
Books of the Eastern part of Middle Earth.... | Dúnedain | Middle Earth | 8 | 01-10-2003 08:40 PM |