12-02-2003, 05:14 PM | #201 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-02-2003, 05:20 PM | #202 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-02-2003, 07:09 PM | #203 | |
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12-02-2003, 07:52 PM | #204 |
Elf Lord
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While I don't, in all respects, agree with JerseyDevil's views above, I would like to compliment him, and the thread in general, on calm discussion, not ranting (probably more then myself). But then, I haven't had much respect for the current Republican leadership group in Washington since they cynically destroyed the candidacy of a person I who I think would have made an excellent president, John McCain (depite his having more conservative views then mine).
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12-02-2003, 07:57 PM | #205 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And thank you for the compliment.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-02-2003 at 07:59 PM. |
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12-03-2003, 05:22 AM | #206 | |
Elven Warrior
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I'm sorry to say this, but as well, I find one particular attitude here so entrenched that my view has become that there is no point attempting to enter into discussion on this or similar matters at all. |
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12-03-2003, 05:39 AM | #207 | ||
Elf Lord
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This kind of thing you have to view as theatre. Very few people are going to have a sudden epiphany when they're typing away on their computer, still less admit to it in a public forum. Admittedly, things like: Quote:
On topic (kind of), that statement came from a poll of Iraqis quoted on the BBC News on Monday evening. It found that, by far, religious leaders were the group that ordinary Iraqis have the most trust in. The reason why it will be interesting is that it will test the mettle of this "democracy for the middle east" argument. Algeria, anyone? Since terrorism and WMDs have been empirically proven to be spurious arguments in favour of war with Iraq, it's the only leg they've got left to stand on. |
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12-03-2003, 06:01 AM | #208 |
Elven Warrior
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And no, I'm not suggesting that people should have a sudden epiphany - it really doesn't matter whether they change their views or not. But what does matter, in my belief, is the way in they express their views .... that's what I meant by 'entrenched' btw, and completely offtopic - I think you may not live a million miles away from me, Gaffer ... (which, as we're both in England, is probably fairly likely anyway ... ) |
12-03-2003, 07:49 AM | #209 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, though I have to admit that I'm probably guilty of that from time to time. Maybe we should carry this over to the "manners" thread.
I'm in Oxford, btw, just round the corner from one of JRRT's old houses. Are you one of those new agers who live on the canal boats down at Port Meadow? *envy* |
12-03-2003, 08:05 AM | #210 | |
Elf Lord
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Hmm, selling arms to both sides in a war. Oh, and channelling the proceeds to a terrorist organisation. How very moral. (And do me the courtesy of not coming back with any "anti-Amercian" slander here; we Brits perfected the technique and built an empire on it.) |
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12-03-2003, 10:48 AM | #211 | |
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*ACHOO*Yugoslavia*ACHOO* France *ACHOO* China*ACHOO* Russia*AAACHOOO* And I don't think a nuclear reactor should have been sold to Iraq either... *cough*France*cough* Nor chemical weapons... *cough*China*cough* Because the region is so volitile. (Pardon me. It's flu season here. ) |
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12-03-2003, 12:41 PM | #212 | |
Elf Lord
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Hey, they're no angels, no question about that. And I heartily agree with you about the arms trade. |
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12-03-2003, 12:46 PM | #213 | ||
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12-03-2003, 01:03 PM | #214 | |
Elf Lord
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"In your view is the the war in Iraq worth the toll it has taken in American lives, and other costs, or not worth it?" Worth it:44% Not worth it:50% LA Poll: worth it ;48% not worth it: 44% "Worth the cost in US military lives" worth it: 31% not worth it:59% ABC News Poll: 52%- worth fighting 44% -not worth fighting For example, look at two schizophrenic reations on the same poll: CBS News: Removing Saddam Hussein from power: worth it: 50% not worth it: 43% From the same poll "worth the loss in American life and other costs: " worth it:40% not worth it:51% The evidence is clear: Americans are totally in favour of removing Saddam from power; they just don't want to pay the costs. Unfortunately, the Iraqis are handing them the bills.
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12-03-2003, 01:09 PM | #215 | |
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Nor supporting Saddam after he committed genocide against the Kurds while people like Al Gore were trying to stop him *George Bush* Dick Cheney* *Donald Rumsfeld* *Colin Powell* cough, cough, cough.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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12-03-2003, 01:19 PM | #216 | |
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12-03-2003, 01:24 PM | #217 | |
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12-03-2003, 01:39 PM | #218 | ||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Gaffer
That's a new one on me. What was that all about? Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 12-03-2003 at 01:42 PM. |
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12-03-2003, 01:52 PM | #219 |
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We're not all bad, GrayMouser. Some of us were on Al Gore's side. We knew some of the horrors committed there. And I'm personally frustrated that the world didn't step in to help the Kurds, or stop the slaughter. Sorry, it's my opinion and if I've just insulted someone, sorry. I know that some countries ignored the UN embargos and traded anyway.
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12-03-2003, 02:55 PM | #220 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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We've been over this and over this and over this. Yes - we let Hussein gas the Kurds - was it right - no - it was not. What was the situation in the 80's though - let's see. The Soviet Union was supporting Iran in a war against Iraq. If Iran won - the whole region would have been turned on it's head. The US was attempting to keep the status quo. Was it humane to just turn a blind eye to Hussein gassing the Kurds - no - it was the politcal environment though. Whether you like it or not. YOu go on and on about the US not doing something about Hussein then - well no we have - after him killing 100's of thousands of more people. He can't kill or gas anyone else - he can't torture people anymore by dipping them in acide baths or putting them through meat grinders.
Hemel - A person when a person shares the same opinion as someone else - it is "rah rah rah, go get them" when someone does not share the same opinions - then it is "that person is arrogant and argumentative" It's human nature. You don't see the snide comments of the people you agree with such as this made by The gaffer... Quote:
GrayMouser - The majority of Americans still support STAYING in Iraq - no matter what it takes. Is it more expensive than we originally thought? yes it is. The oil pipelines were more damaged - Europe is playing "point the finger and laugh". It is obvious from the BBC and French news that you guys want us to come crawling on our hands and knees and beg for support. Or you want us to basically fail so you can say - "see the stupid Americans". You say it's not so - but everyday I see this type of attitude on European news. As for not liking Bush - you don't liek him because he doesn't kiss europe's big fat ass like Clinton did. He just lays it on the line and if you don't like it - he just says fine and does it anyway. The other thing you don't like - is that he doesn't share your liberal politics. Well hate to you this - but the majority of Americans don't share your liberal politics either. By the way - Hemel - is it statements like - "he doesn't kiss europe's big fat ass" that you were talking about? If so - I suggest you go look at the past threads I mentioned to see why I'm not that happy with Europeans anymore.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-03-2003 at 03:06 PM. |
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